My fiancé and I enjoy canoeing in our 17' Clipper Tripper. The canoe is very stable, and we have ridden out powerboat wakes (on the Willamette River) coming from many directions without a problem. Well, a few weeks ago a friend wanted to go canoeing. This friend had no previous canoeing experience. And he's a husky guy -- built like a bull, with big shoulders. I'm going to guess that he and I together probably make a 600 lb. load. So anyway, we went canoeing on a calm lake. But with my friend up front, the canoe felt very unstable. In fact, I felt like I was in a kayak for the first time. I had this feeling like, if anybody moved the wrong way, we would tip over. Strangely enough, I don't think he felt that way at all. Maybe he thought that's how a canoe works. At one point a motor boat went by. It didn't leave much of a wake, but I felt like we came about as close to tipping over as you could, without actually going over. My friend seemed to enjoy the outing. I enjoyed getting safely back on dry land. After this experience I started wondering about a way to go canoeing with this friend, without feeling like we're going into the drink at any moment. I figure the problem is that this guy, because of his build, makes the canoe "top heavy," so to speak. So I've been wondering if some ballast in the bottom of the canoe might help, and if so, how much I might need. I would appreciate any advice. Thanks. jim *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Holman [mailto:holmanj_at_ohsu.edu] > Sent: Monday, January 24, 2000 8:49 AM snip I figure the problem is that > this guy, because of his build, makes the canoe "top heavy," > so to speak. So I've been wondering if some ballast in the > bottom of the canoe might help, and if so, how much I might > need. I would appreciate any advice. > Quick question - was he sitting on a seat or kneeling? Kneeling drops the center of gravity considerably lower in most canoes than sitting on a seat. Dave Seng Juneau, Alaska *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
IN reference to the very large bow paddler, I believe you have a trim issue. I have seen a similar situation in the reverse. Can you imagine a 6'8" 290lb man paddling stern with a 90lb 13 year old in the bow? I swear I could see air under the front seat. Even if your situation is not this extreme, the effective waterline beam changes with your trim. The beamiest part of your canoe, which provides all of that initial stability is just barely in the water. It is not deep enough to provide any lateral roll resistance. The effective beam of your canoe is whatever it is between the center and the bow, probably about 24", which is why it felt like a kayak. As far as a solution, ballast under or behine your seat to trim would help. However, it would probably be easier to move your friend closer to the center fo the boat so that you are balanced. There are many commercial and homemade seats that could be used for this. Moving him onto this other seat could also help lower him (and thus your center of gravity), but I really don't think that is too much of a problem. Daniel -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- "When all is said and done, more is said than done." -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
My own case isn't quite this extreme, but at 200 lb., I've often kept my 7-9 year old daughter in the bow. She actually got pretty good at bow ruddering. To effectively balance to weight I turned the boat around. I sat in the bow seat and she was way forward in the stern seat. 7 year olds don't take much leg room. To complete the trim adjustment, I adjusted the position of the icechest and emergency kit. An overloaded bow sucks. An overloaded stern sucks too, but not nearly as badly as an overloaded bow. If you must use a very heavy paddler in the bow, try having him paddle kneeling just behind the bow seat. This latter solution has several advantages: 1. Helps center the heavy weight fore & aft. 2. Allows the presumably big/strong paddler a very powerful paddling position. 3. Takes the strain off the gunwales. 4. Lowers the center of gravity. Do the math, a tall person sitting on a canoe seat has way too much mass too far above the waterline. My free advice, your mileage may vary. jerry. At 12:44 PM 01/24/2000 -0800, D. Key wrote: >IN reference to the very large bow paddler, I believe you have a trim >issue. I have seen a similar situation in the reverse. Can you imagine a >6'8" 290lb man paddling stern with a 90lb 13 year old in the bow? I swear >I could see air under the front seat. Even if your situation is not this >extreme, the effective waterline beam changes with your trim. The >beamiest part of your canoe, which provides all of that initial stability >is just barely in the water. It is not deep enough to provide any lateral >roll resistance. The effective beam of your canoe is whatever it is >between the center and the bow, probably about 24", which is why it felt >like a kayak. >As far as a solution, ballast under or behine your seat to trim would >help. However, it would probably be easier to move your friend closer to >the center fo the boat so that you are balanced. There are many >commercial and homemade seats that could be used for this. Moving him >onto this other seat could also help lower him (and thus your center of >gravity), but I really don't think that is too much of a problem. > >Daniel > > >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >"When all is said and done, more is said than done." >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > > > > >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not >to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ >*************************************************************************** > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
A couple of thoughts I'm guessing that your stout friend weighs quite a bit more than your fiancé. I'm also guessing that you weigh quite a bit more than your fiancé. When you paddle with your fiancé your end of the boat sits much lower in the water than the bow. When you paddle with your friend the boat is closer to being trimmed and may actually be bow heavy. This change in trim can dramatically change your perception of the boat's stability. Depending on the boat and the relative weights involved you may actually be higher above the water line when paddling with with your fiancé. This will amplify to you any movement of the boat. I would suggest that in shallow water you lean to one side and get a feel for both the primary and secondary stability. You will probably find that it has not substantially changed. With more paddling time with the modified balance the boat will again feel solid. A second alternative is to get a pad, get off the seat and learn to paddle from the kneeling position. This has a couple of benefits. It lowers your center of gravity. It gives you a better and more accurate feeling of the boats actual movement. It makes it easier to shift your weight to stabilize the boat. I would not recommend ballast. Even the famous Canadian Ballast Rocks have been noted to shift. This makes a bad situation worse. -----Original Message----- From: Jim Holman <holmanj_at_ohsu.edu> To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Date: Monday, January 24, 2000 2:27 PM Subject: [Paddlewise] Canoe "Tip" Report >My fiancé and I enjoy canoeing in our 17' Clipper Tripper. The canoe is very stable, and we have ridden out powerboat wakes (on the Willamette River) coming from many directions without a problem. > >Well, a few weeks ago a friend wanted to go canoeing. This friend had no previous canoeing experience. And he's a husky guy -- built like a bull, with big shoulders. I'm going to guess that he and I together probably make a 600 lb. load. > >So anyway, we went canoeing on a calm lake. But with my friend up front, the canoe felt very unstable. In fact, I felt like I was in a kayak for the first time. I had this feeling like, if anybody moved the wrong way, we would tip over. Strangely enough, I don't think he felt that way at all. Maybe he thought that's how a canoe works. At one point a motor boat went by. It didn't leave much of a wake, but I felt like we came about as close to tipping over as you could, without actually going over. > >My friend seemed to enjoy the outing. I enjoyed getting safely back on dry land. > >After this experience I started wondering about a way to go canoeing with this friend, without feeling like we're going into the drink at any moment. I figure the problem is that this guy, because of his build, makes the canoe "top heavy," so to speak. So I've been wondering if some ballast in the bottom of the canoe might help, and if so, how much I might need. I would appreciate any advice. > >Thanks. > >jim > > >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not >to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ >*************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 1/24/00 4:45:59 PM, jhawkins_at_cisco.com writes: << An overloaded bow sucks. An overloaded stern sucks too, but not nearly as badly as an overloaded bow. If you must use a very heavy paddler in the bow, try having him paddle kneeling just behind the bow seat. This latter solution has several advantages: >> Heavy paddlers will not kneel. It is painful the heavier one is and if they are new they will be so tired in the first mile you will have just a "wonderful" trip with a grumpy companion. I come from a canoe background and the kneeling position is great if your knees can take it but without practice they can't. Joan Spinner * * * Paddling the Chesapeake Bay watershed In a red, CD Breeze or a yellow/white Dagger Meridian SK and a 17' Grumman no one wants to argue with *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Joan, I agree, spending a whole day kneeling is not for the uninitiated. I always carry a child's swimming pool kickboard as a kneeeling pad. If I kneel more than 4-5 miles at a stretch I switch back and forth between that and a throwable life preserver/seat cushion which is thicker and softer. One can also sit on a seat cushion instead of a seat, which brings the weight down by several critical inches. I also have some nylon sling saddles which clip onto the gunwales. If they are extended down a bit I can slide the seat cushion under the sling seat (so the gunwales don't carry all the weight) and get a height and support combination which is somewhat comfortable and can be moved fore and aft to balance the boat. The main thing, I think, is to have some alternatives available and be willing to try them out. jerry. jerry. At 09:22 PM 01/24/2000 -0500, JSpinner_at_aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 1/24/00 4:45:59 PM, jhawkins_at_cisco.com writes: > ><< An overloaded bow sucks. An overloaded stern sucks too, but not nearly as >badly as an overloaded bow. If you must use a very heavy paddler in the bow, >try having him paddle kneeling just behind the bow seat. This latter >solution has several advantages: >> > >Heavy paddlers will not kneel. It is painful the heavier one is and if they >are new they will be so tired in the first mile you will have just a >"wonderful" trip with a grumpy companion. > I come from a canoe background and the kneeling position is great if your >knees can take it but without practice they can't. > >Joan Spinner > * * * >Paddling the Chesapeake Bay watershed >In a red, CD Breeze or >a yellow/white Dagger Meridian SK >and a 17' Grumman no one wants to argue with >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not >to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ >*************************************************************************** > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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