In a message dated 1/6/00 7:58:38 PM, paddlin_at_home.com writes: << I've used a P & H Sirius in "side drops" off a pier 4-5 ft above the water a couple of times strictly for showing off and it worked well>> ** snip, snip, snip ** <<The apparent strength of the hull inspires such horseplay that I would never have considered in a typical American made boat. >> This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. British boat owners having way too much fun with maneuvers that the rest of us would never attempt. I have enjoyed my American boats. If they made them stronger, stiffer, more rigid, with a skeg rather than a rudder, with waterproof hatch covers, more abrasion resistant, with waterproof bulkheads, with a lower rear deck (so I can layback), with less windage and strong enough to sit on, then I would not be shopping for used British boats. British versus American? Vive la difference! Vive la choix! Jed *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
My Nordkapp is signed by the builder. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 1/6/00 7:27:34 PM, John Winters writes: << An extensive body of test data exists for a wide range of laminates (done by fabric and resin manufacturers and others) but, while it provides some comparative measure of the various strengths it doesn't answer the basic questions, "How strong is strong enough" and "what are the relative importance of weight, impact resistance, stiffness .etc. etc". >> << I love the numbers but they don't tell me the difference between "just right", "under built", and "overbuilt" not to mention the difficulty in understanding them.>> John, What's your opinion on a battery of repeatable tests to try to get a handle on the strength/durability issues. Certainly the numbers on material strength alone are not the answer. Is the design of the boat a significant factor with regard to strength and durability? Do you think that meaningful test could be designed to test these properties? Thanks in advance for your input. Jed Goffstown, NH *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Jed wrote; (Snip) > What's your opinion on a battery of repeatable tests to try to get a > handle on the strength/durability issues. Certainly the numbers on material > strength alone are not the answer. Is the design of the boat a significant > factor with regard to strength and durability? Do you think that meaningful > test could be designed to test these properties? Thanks in advance for your > input. > I don't doubt that a test regime can be devised. Not sure what it will cost but I doubt if manufacturers would want to pay for it (based on my experience with manufacturers). I doubt if Sea Kayaker has the money (or the time) either. The design of the boat does impact on its durability under some conditions. I recall that one British manufacturer had problems with stress cracking around the aft bulkhead (can't recall if it was VCP or Dennis). It was clearly a design problem. A builder of one of my designs (not a current builder thank God) produced some really poor boats where the design was altered by the builder. I have yet to live that down. Anyway, I am sure tests could be devised. Whether you can find the will to do them or not and whether paddlers will really use the information to their benefit or not remains to be seen. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Web site address, http://home.ican.net/~735769 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Personally it is my impression that European paddlers, with no 'heritage' to portaging (canoes), are just not concerned with weight as much as American paddlers, especially if it means their kayak (or canoe) will stand up to any abuse they can imagine. (In fact a lot of seakayakers that I now seem to feel that a heavy weight kayak is also an advantage for paddling!) Building lightweight is just not the issue here as it is in America with a history from canoeing, where canoes were always(?) more build with an attention to the weight versus strength detail? And knowing & willing to deal with a _relatively_ fragile boat (e.g. Wood&Canvas Canoes)! It is no wonder of course why Royalex is now the more favorite material for canoes then FRP, because it is very strong with reasonable weight, reasonable price, and (with the right design) rigid enough for good performance. If kayaks could/will be made in Royalex, see what happens then! Dirk Barends the Netherlands *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>>> <snip> It is no wonder of course why Royalex is now the more favorite material for canoes then FRP, because it is very strong with reasonable weight, reasonable price, and (with the right design) rigid enough for good performance. If kayaks could/will be made in Royalex, see what happens then! Dirk Barends the Netherlands >>> I consider Royalex a heavy material for portaging, more suited for whitewater than for lake travel. My skin coat, foam core, FRP, Wenonah Jensen 18, which I bought for paddling and portaging in the Boundary Waters Canoe Area Wilderness, weighs about 24 kg, versus 32 to 36 kg for a typical Royalex canoe. Of course, my canoe is more lightly built than my kayak. My impression is that, generally, plastic kayaks weigh about as much as heavy-duty FRP kayaks, and more than typical North American FRP kayaks. Chuck Holst *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
There was a British kayak made of Royalex, made by Piranha I believe. I paddled it and it was quite ok. cya - *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Fri, 7 Jan 2000, Bob Denton wrote: > There was a British kayak made of Royalex, made by Piranha I believe. I > paddled it and it was quite ok. I still technically own an Old Town kayak built of royalex(Oltonar) in about 1977. In one persons words "That boat is the worst kayak ever designed, I don't even want to call it a kayak". Fortunately my mother is too frugal to buy her own boat and perfectly happy to use it to putter around the small river in her side yard. With practice it can be controlled.... It's floppy, heavy, and the seat is too far forward so the boat is bow heavy. Moving the seat isn't feasible, paddling with rocks helps but it's just not worth it. I hereby nominate it as the worst commercially produced kayak, so far ;-) There are probably a fair number of homebuilts that could beat it out as the worst kayak ever... *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
It's a lucky thing that the Brit boats have no electrical systems because we'd never get them started! (Lucas: Prince of Darkness) cya This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. British boat owners having way too much fun with maneuvers that the rest of us would never attempt. I have enjoyed my American boats. If they made them stronger, stiffer, more rigid, with a skeg rather than a rudder, with waterproof hatch covers, more abrasion resistant, with waterproof bulkheads, with a lower rear deck (so I can layback), with less windage and strong enough to sit on, then I would not be shopping for used British boats. British versus American? Vive la difference! Vive la choix! Jed *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Bob Denton <BDenton_at_aquagulf.com> wrote: >My Nordkapp is signed by the builder. So is my Chesapeake 17! ;) Shawn W. Baker 0 46°53'N © 1999 ____©/______ 114°06'W ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^\ ,/ /~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^ baker_at_montana.com 0 http://www.missoulaconcrete.com/shawn/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 1/7/00 4:53:36 PM !!!First Boot!!!, Dirk writes: << If kayaks could/will be made in Royalex, see what happens then! >> I believe that P&H had a Royalex touring kayak several years ago. "Orca" was the model name. I haven't seen many of them. I don't think it was a very good material for sea kayaks. In a Royalex canoe, the rails, seats and thwarts are extremely important with regard to structural strength. Without these parts the kayak had to be built in a manner that afforded no weight savings. Yeah, it was Royalex, but it was as heavy as a heavy glass boat. Bruce McC WEO www.wholeearthoutfitters.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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