We can postulate over the various risks and risk management issues 'til the cows come home but all of this will only serve, at best, to ease our collective conscience. It will not keep the idiot who wants to explore seakayaking by paddling straight into the ocean from danger. Nature limits the number of idiots in this world through the very efficient and dispassionate mechanism of Natural Selection. It confuses me that we continue to obsess over the safety of the least intelligent of us that happen to find themselves in a kayak. I don't wish anyone harm and I would like everyone the tries seakayaking to have a wonderful and beautiful experience. Please remember the people the some of the postings are trying to protect from themselves probably don't subscribe to PaddleWise. Why would they? They don't care or want to know about reality or the possible dangers. The people that subscribe to this list are, for the most part, intelligent humans that want to learn, not brainless drones with a death wish. Continue if you must to preach to the non-kayakers but I find that all the traffic serves to diminish the potential of this list. This issue seems to surface every three weeks or so, our elite paddlers can barely finish a story before the lawyers are lined up to paste in the disclaimers. I, for one am here because I have some vague concept of the dangers and the stories of others mishaps help refine my understanding of the possibilities. Mainly I'm here to find out about things like the Extreme Glow lights, boat repairs and equipment specifics. Have we settled all of the kayaking issues so that all that's left is to warn each other that it is possible to die in a kayak? I sure hope we haven't. I am a very safety conscious paddler, but I don't see the purpose in discussing, ad nauseum, the ability of some post-labotomy survivor to get into a dicey situation in a kayak. Let nature do it's job, Paddlewise is for the rest of us. Respectfully submitted for your consideration Jed Luby Goffstown, NH *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 2/23/00 4:00:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, LedJube_at_aol.com writes: > It confuses me that we continue to obsess over the safety of the least > intelligent of us that happen to find themselves in a kayak. I feel frustrated, but not confused. I believe it is human nature to show concern for those of us who chose to ignore or are unaware of dangerous situations. Why else do we have rescue squads for mountain climbers and other adventurers who perform foolish stunts. Some of us have been involved in daredevil activities and have survived only because of this caring trait which we share. If we survive, hopefully we can go on to educate, or in the worst case rescue others. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
being new to the sport of sea kayaking my self i appreciate the saftey tips in this list. im not a drone with a death wish. that is why i like the saftey tips. not every one subscribed to this list is a vetran paddler. i guess from the first time you got in a boat you were an expert and nobody ever had to give you any saftey tips. everytime i get a saftey tip whether from this list or from any other source i listen to it and do what i need to do to integrate that saftey tip into my kayaking. and thanx to all of you have given out saftey tips. it really helps this newbie. dave > We can postulate over the various risks and risk management issues 'til >the cows come home but all of this will only serve, at best, to ease our >collective conscience. It will not keep the idiot who wants to explore >seakayaking by paddling straight into the ocean from danger. Nature limits >the number of idiots in this world through the very efficient and >dispassionate mechanism of Natural Selection. > It confuses me that we continue to obsess over the safety of the least >intelligent of us that happen to find themselves in a kayak. I don't wish >anyone harm and I would like everyone the tries seakayaking to have a >wonderful and beautiful experience. Please remember the people the some of >the postings are trying to protect from themselves probably don't subscribe >to PaddleWise. Why would they? They don't care or want to know about reality >or the possible dangers. > The people that subscribe to this list are, for the most part, >intelligent humans that want to learn, not brainless drones with a death >wish. Continue if you must to preach to the non-kayakers but I find that all >the traffic serves to diminish the potential of this list. This issue seems >to surface every three weeks or so, our elite paddlers can barely finish a >story before the lawyers are lined up to paste in the disclaimers. I, for one >am here because I have some vague concept of the dangers and the stories of >others mishaps help refine my understanding of the possibilities. Mainly I'm >here to find out about things like the Extreme Glow lights, boat repairs and >equipment specifics. > Have we settled all of the kayaking issues so that all that's left is to >warn each other that it is possible to die in a kayak? I sure hope we >haven't. I am a very safety conscious paddler, but I don't see the purpose in >discussing, ad nauseum, the ability of some post-labotomy survivor to get >into a dicey situation in a kayak. Let nature do it's job, Paddlewise is for >the rest of us. > > Respectfully submitted for your consideration > >Jed Luby >Goffstown, NH >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not >to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ >*************************************************************************** > > http://www.nwlink.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dave, I meant no offense and certainly did not mean to suggest that the safety tips should be axed. My point is that we collectively seem to obsess on the obvious hazards of our chosen sport for the sake of non paddlers. How may times does an intelligent person like yourself need to be reminded that hypothermia can kill? Or that wind and waves can blow you off course? Or that the lack of a roll in rough conditions means that you'll probably end up swimming? My tirade was not intended to keep you from valuable information but rather to screen out the ceaseless rehashing of the obvious and to give a nod to the elite paddlers to continue to educate us with their tales of life close to the edge. I am a new paddler myself, just starting my third year and rest assured I had very little knowledge or skill when I started. But being the reckless person that I am, I took a lesson, of all things, to teach me the basics. Then I joined a club and subscribed to various news groups and mailing lists and I paddled and paddled and paddled. Mostly alone because it was alone or not at all. I knew I was taking chances paddling solo, so I studied the sh*t out of every spec of safety info I could find and I learned to roll like a pro. And now, two years later, I'm still no expert but I am a competent paddler who has yet to find his limits, and who because of postings by and discussions with elite paddlers, has *safely* reached my third season with a head absolutely full of well intentioned safety advice. At my level I need to experience vicariously through the elite paddlers just where the line is. But these people are being censored because a non paddler might misinterpret the information and charge off to cross the North Sea. I say let him go, it's a free ocean. Please don't deny me the sources of information that I seek. I too welcome safety info but we seem to have lost our bearing. I don't need another source of safety info, thanks very much, I need information on tide races and wind effects and rolling tips in rough conditions, etc., etc. Maybe your newness keeps you hungry for the basic safety information, for me the hunger has been satiated, now I'm being force fed and I don't like it. I wish you all the luck and good fortune the world has to offer. Enjoy the journey, your kayak is the perfect vessel for what ever destination you have. Jed In a message dated 2/24/00 5:40:56 AM, davea_at_pop.nwlink.com writes: << being new to the sport of sea kayaking my self i appreciate the safety tips in this list. im not a drone with a death wish. that is why i like the saftey tips. not every one subscribed to this list is a vetran paddler. i guess from the first time you got in a boat you were an expert and nobody ever had to give you any saftey tips. everytime i get a saftey tip whether from this list or from any other source i listen to it and do what i need to do to integrate that saftey tip into my kayaking. and thanx to all of you have given out saftey tips. it really helps this newbie. dave >> *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Jed, Below is the text of your most recent posting in which I have capitalized certain words and phrases that I wish to take issue with. Before I begin, though, I would like to take issue with a key point in your previous posting, which is pretty much covered in the title...the phrase Natural Selection. I remember seeing that phrase tossed around a few years ago in rec.boats.paddle pretty much the way you have done, i.e. if people are going to be stupid let natural selection kill them off. Some how I don't think that the phrase is appropriate one for PaddleWise. PaddleWise's premises, which are in the webpage, are to promote wise paddling and to save lives before your natural selection idea kicks in. You of course are free to continue to use it if you wish; that's a nice thing about PaddleWise. LedJube_at_aol.com wrote: > > Dave, > I meant no offense and certainly did not mean to suggest that the safety > tips should be axed. My point is that we collectively seem to OBSESS on the > obvious hazards of our chosen sport for the sake of non paddlers. How may > times does an intelligent person like yourself need to be reminded that > hypothermia can kill? Or that wind and waves can blow you off course? Or > that the lack of a roll in rough conditions means that you'll probably end up > swimming? I plead guilty. I and others do OBSESS about safety issues and hazards. It is always good to remind ourselves of this as David Kruger did in describing two incidents at "Cape Horn" where "old salts" wisdom most likely avoided a dangerous result. I never can get enough reminders of safety and tend to like to dish it out as well. Jed, what you are forgetting is that perhaps there is a 10-20% turnover on PaddleWise every few months and so many newcomers are constantly entering the listserver. You see this in many ways. The same questions are asked about VHF radios or paddlefloats or where to get charts, etc. These questions even being asked for the umpteen time are answered in good cheer and no one is made to seem stupid for asking. Since you are not in a position to dish out information, the same information, constantly you probably aren't attuned to the patience involved. As you may know, I am a folding kayak guru. Do you know the hundreds of times I am asked the same questions in any given season? I answer them cheerfully because that is my nature but also because even when questions are asked hundreds of times, there are always some new wrinkles I had not thought of and so I benefit from the question and the answer myself. > My tirade was not intended to keep you from valuable information but > rather TO SCREEN OUT THE CEASELY REHASHING OF THE OBVIOUS and to give a nod > to the elite paddlers to continue to educate us with their tales of life > close to the edge. I am not certain PaddleWise wants to SCREEN OUT any valuable contributions. And what may be OBVIOUS to you may not be to others. > I am a new paddler myself, just starting my third year and rest assured I > had very little knowledge or skill when I started. But being the reckless > person that I am, I took a lesson, of all things, to teach me the basics. > Then I joined a club and subscribed to various news groups and mailing lists > and I paddled and paddled and paddled. Mostly alone because it was alone or > not at all. I knew I was taking chances paddling solo, so I studied the sh*t > out of every spec of safety info I could find and I learned to roll like a > pro. While you seem to find a problem with some subject matter on PaddleWise, the paragraph above suggests that you are in a position to contribute other subject matter of value. The paragraph above is full of leads for good information topics. It would be enlightening to see how a self-confessed reckless person approached sea kayaking and the lessons he learned. Josh in Israel is giving us all a very informative account of what he is learning way out there. You have gone through such a process already and could contribute a retrospective on your learning curve, for example. > And now, two years later, I'm still no expert but I am a competent > paddler who has yet to find his limits, and who because of postings by and > discussions with elite paddlers, has *safely* reached my third season with a > head absolutely full of WELL-INTENTIONED safety advice. At my level I need to > experience vicariously through the elite paddlers just where the line is. But > these people are being CENSORED because a non paddler might misinterpret the > information and charge off to cross the North Sea. I say let him go, it's a > free ocean. Please don't DENY ME the sources of information that I seek. WELL-INTENTIONED. Yes, it is well-intentioned, although the phrase is generally used as a put-down. I myself prefer the term CONCERNED SAVVY safety advice. CENSORED? I don't believe anything is being censored on PaddleWise except for diatribes and personal attacks when Jackie can get wind of them and loop them out. Some people have made a pain of themselves (that is how PaddleWise started, i.e. get away from a pain person hurting a previous listserver) and been cut off. Or they have violated netiquette and civil behavior in dealing with others on the list. And you are not being DENIED anything you seek that I am aware of except your wish to cut safety discussion out because you have had enough. > I too welcome safety info BUT WE SEEMED TO HAVE LOST OUR BEARING. I don't > need another source of safety info, thanks very much, I need information on > tide races and wind effects and rolling tips in rough conditions, etc., etc. > Maybe your newness keeps you hungry for the basic safety information, for me > the hunger has been satiated, now I'm being force fed and I don't like it. I would argue that we have not lost our way and are on-topic according to the premises of PaddleWise as written on the webpage. I personally learn from every bit of advice. I don't think I ever know everything about any topic. Even on folding kayaks in which I am perhaps the most knowledgeable person on earth...I am learning all the time nuances and new slants that I have never thought of before. Jed, please be patient on all this. Just tune out the safety stuff and tune in (and contribute to) those topics that do interest you like tide race and wind effects, etc. I am certain that PaddleWise will be the better for any constructive contributions you make. ralph -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 2/23/00 12:54:18 PM Pacific Standard Time, LedJube_at_aol.com writes; << It confuses me that we continue to obsess over the safety of the least intelligent of us that happen to find themselves in a kayak. >> I'm not so certain if we "obsess" over the least intelligent, or the least informed. In either case I think it is still possible to try to educate, or at the very least, frighten these folks into being responsible and paddling conservatively within their limits. While I am all for natural selection, I am against regulation of my sport. Quite frankly, whether or not people want to be stupid and go out and kill themselves makes no difference to me. But if it happens enough then big brother will feel compelled to "save us" with regulations and licensing and kayaking will become just another yuppie past time. One of the things that attracted me to this sport was the freedom of it. The current thread about restrictions on kayaks in some places is just a small example of what can happen. I've seen it happen to scuba diving, jet skis, and surfing. At San Onofre Surf Beach here in sunny Southern California we just lost a battle with the board surfers. Kayaks are now restricted to one small end of the beach, while the boards can still surf wherever they want to, including within the kayak section. If we do not assume the responsibility for our sport NOW, then someone else, perhaps someone who knows nothing at all about kayaking, will assume it for us. Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Ralph, you said EXACTLY what I have been thinking on the subject but have been to busy to write. You even used the same examples! Thank you! Everyone is Ignorant. Stupid people are the ones who cannot learn their way out of Ignorance. Later... Dan McCarty *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Also, the demographics of Paddlewisers seems to indicate that they have long ago completed their breeding activities. Their loss in a kayaking accident will have no effect on the spread of their genetic material bob phillips *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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