In a message dated 2/25/00 9:13:20 AM !!!First Boot!!!, dlloyd_at_telus.net writes: << I always get a little embarrassed on this list when I'm referred to as an expert. I'm _not_ an expert; so if you ever meet me or paddle with me, and wonder what all the fuss was about, it wasn't _me_ who termed me as an expert, okay? >> Doug, Your modesty is refreshing. Some people (myself included) believe that if those around you sing your praise, you are more likely to be deserving than if you sing it yourself. Just one man's armpit (Uh, I mean opinion). Bruce McCutcheon WEO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>Part of the "problem" of PaddleWise is that it houses both elite >paddlers of long experience and high skill with newcomers and others of >lesser skill and experience. And there are always that group of intermediate paddlers (myself included) who have progressed in learning skills rapidly, but have not had the years of experience (to use a "Doug-ism") think three-dimensionally. Some of these paddlers go on to become old, expert paddlers. I want to become one of those people. Some of these paddlers get too cocky in their perception of their own abilities and get in way over their heads--this is occurring more and more in WW paddling. I do not want to become one of these people. I appreciate all the caveats the expert paddlers attach to their reports, but it really boils down to personal responsibility. If a person has it, they'll heed the warnings and stay near their limits to learn and become more skilled boaters. If a person lacks that responsibility, no amount of warnings on a listserv will teach them the requisite responsibility. >Sometimes in the wake of telling a tale of >a risky situation overcomed through will and skill, a euphoria emerges >in the listener who might overlook that will and skill and think it is >okay to try the same without the will and skill. And sometimes an irresponsible boater will go off and try something daring and stupid without will and skill, and without any ideas from experts who have overcome risky situations. >Their element of "risk" is greatly reduced by that familiarity. It >doesn't hurt, as Scott has attempted, to keep reminding ourselves of >that as a reality check on enthusiastic imitation. I think you hit the nail right on the head here, Ralph. We should judge our element of risk based on our own familiarity, and not someone else's. Shawn -- Shawn W. Baker 0 46°53'N © 1999 ____©/______ 114°06'W ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^\ ,/ /~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^ baker_at_montana.com 0 http://www.missoulaconcrete.com/shawn/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Shawn W. Baker wrote: > And there are always that group of intermediate paddlers (myself > included) who have progressed in learning skills rapidly, but have not > had the years of experience (to use a "Doug-ism") think > three-dimensionally. Some of these paddlers go on to become old, expert > paddlers. I want to become one of those people. Some of these paddlers > get too cocky in their perception of their own abilities and get in way > over their heads--this is occurring more and more in WW paddling. I am glad WW paddling was just brought up. I hope this doesn't lead to a string of denials but the fatalities and accidents in WW paddling seem to run the full spectrum of skills with a surprising number of incidents involving the most expert and elite, and to a degree the intemediate pushing his/her skills. In contrast, in sea kayaking there have not been fatalities at the expert/elite level (knock on wood); and the incidents in sea kayaking for the most part have involved beginners; or not even beginners but just the totally uninitiated who grab a kayak and go out early in the season when air is warm and water cold and capsizing and dying from hypothermia. However, I am getting the impression, at least around here, that this may be changing and advanced beginners are beginning to take on more than they may be able to handle. Sea kayaking seems so easy, particularly on a nice day. Trouble is that nice days can turn in a flash to not so nice conditions. There are so many variables and nuances in every aspect of sea kayaking, especially in busy waters with motorboat and commercial traffic (look at http://www.seakayaker.com, the Salty Dog e-mag for a discussion of dealing with traffic; it's under Navigation). Skills need to be really learned and not just read about in a book. Over the last few years, I have run into dozens of advanced beginners (advanced in terms of times paddling) on the water who carry paddle floats but never ever tried them out or think they know self-rescue because they read about how to do it in a book or saw a video. Or have no way of guaging traffic or judging what currents are doing, or deciphering spots where the waters will likely misbehave and rudely surprise them. Sea Kayaker mag is getting more of such wake up calls in articles like that one recently about two advanced beginners who tipped over in cold waters in Maine in the area where ocean and a river meet (I forget the exact spot); they didn't understand what would happen to them when they came out of the shadow created by an island into an area being churned up by wind waves over a sandbar. If you know how to read a chart or just the lay of water, wind and land and how they interact, you can avoid such trouble spots or not be surprised when entering them. Again, sea kayaking looks so easy. And kayaks are often enough sold with little advice in general sporting goods stores. Throw in some breathless article in a general outside-spirit mag like Outside or an airline mag (not Sea Kayaker or this PaddleWise listserv which both are full of warnings) about the thrill of the sport and you have a formula froth with potential chaos. cheers, ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
ralph diaz wrote: > Over the last few years, I have run into dozens of advanced beginners > (advanced in terms of times paddling) on the water who carry paddle > floats but never ever tried them out or think they know self-rescue > because they read about how to do it in a book or saw a video. [snip] > Again, sea kayaking looks so easy. And kayaks are often enough sold > with little advice in general sporting goods stores. Throw in some > breathless article in a general outside-spirit mag like Outside or an > airline mag (not Sea Kayaker or this PaddleWise listserv which both are > full of warnings) about the thrill of the sport and you have a formula > fraught with potential chaos. Ralph speaks wisely, again. His words reminded me of two times I turned back on my local paddle waters -- one time forcing the others paddling with me to also abandon the "plan" that day. Both times were at a spot on the Lower Columbia River known as "Cape Horn." Turns out that spot attracts wind, which when westerly, goes against the normal downstream current. It is THE point a pair of downriver paddlers from way east of me called "the worst spot we paddled on 250 miles of river." These guys pulled a mini-Lewis-and-Clark trip spread over a summer, and did the whole Columbia from the Tri-Cities to the mouth! Cool guys. I ran into them down here, after they had **returned** from the bar. They thought the swell on the Columbia River Bar was fun [!]. Anyway, back to the two times I turned around: once was as a foursome, and at the instigation of one of the ladies. She did not want to paddle against the headwind developing -- and we could see ahead, down at Cape Horn, that there was some rough water there. So, we reversed direction and fought a mild ebb current, back to sunnier and less-windy waters to our put-in. (We had originally planned a one-way trip with a take-out five or six miles below the Cape.) Much nicer. She made a good choice, one I should have made, but did not. The other was an early season trip incorporating five or six novices and two more-experienced paddlers. After an overnight stay on a mid-channel island, we got off late, just as the daily hurricane developed in our faces, and the ebb was building. About a mile down from our camp, as eddylines became more distinct on points, and the wind waves rose, my stomach churned. We were on cold water (May has 50 degree water here). Some of our folks did not know much about bracing. Others had no immersion clothing. I could see ahead that as the current rounded the Cape, we would be exposed to a long mile of rough stuff, with few bailout opportunites. So, I called it off and persuaded the others to return to our island. We had a leisurely lunch and retreated up a back-channel to our rigs. Now and then I think on that day and what might have happened: two or three capsized folks in the water, current running, wind waves messing us up, and only cliffs for a haulout. That did not happen, mainly because I had been there before, and experienced conditions the others had not. I think it was a classic setup like the kind Ralph described. Without an old salt around, the others probably would have continued. I like to think most of the folks on this list can function as "old salts," and that our dialog helps to improve our judgement. It certainly has improved mine. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Sea kayaking to the outside observer looks deceptively easy. Maybe when people ask, "Are they tippy?" instead of telling them the truth, we should reply, "Yes, they are, but with some dedicated practice, it is very easy." Then, along the way to learning to paddle the 'tippy' boat, they might absorb more skills like navigation, weather and conditions awareness, rescues, and general safety. So, how do we as responsible kayakers go about helping these outside newcomers to become safe paddlers? Surely warning each other (PaddleWisers) about the risks is not going to help the average "airline mag" reading beginner. For example: last summer, Costco had rotomolded sea kayaks for about $900. It appeared to be an average shape/size with modest outfitting, but they did not even have PFD's on sale that week. I was fuming, but my wife wouldn't let me talk to the local manager (not that that would have done any good). What can we do? Shawn ralph diaz wrote: > Again, sea kayaking looks so easy. And kayaks are often enough sold > with little advice in general sporting goods stores. Throw in some > breathless article in a general outside-spirit mag like Outside or an > airline mag (not Sea Kayaker or this PaddleWise listserv which both are > full of warnings) about the thrill of the sport and you have a formula > froth with potential chaos. -- Shawn W. Baker 0 46°53'N © 1999 ____©/______ 114°06'W ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^\ ,/ /~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^ baker_at_montana.com 0 http://www.missoulaconcrete.com/shawn/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
One of my favorite authors, Wallace Stegnar said it best, ""I can think of nothing pleasanter than to be close to danger or discomfort, but still to be protected, preferably by one’s own foresight and effort." Hal Wilton, NH Power your boat with carbohydrates, not hydrocarbons. http://www.jlc.net/~hlevin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>>>>If a person has it, they'll heed the warnings [of more experienced paddlers] >and stay near their limits to learn and become more skilled boaters. If >a person lacks that responsibility, no amount of warnings on a listserv >will teach them the requisite responsibility. > >>Sometimes in the wake of telling a tale of >>a risky situation overcomed through will and skill, a euphoria emerges >>in the listener who might overlook that will and skill and think it is >>okay to try the same without the will and skill. > >And sometimes an irresponsible boater will go off and try something >daring and stupid without will and skill, and without any ideas from >experts who have overcome risky situations. > >>Their element of "risk" is greatly reduced by that familiarity. It >>doesn't hurt, as Scott has attempted, to keep reminding ourselves of >>that as a reality check on enthusiastic imitation. > >I think you hit the nail right on the head here, Ralph. We should judge >our element of risk based on our own familiarity, and not someone >else's. > >Shawn ...... Shawn, am I correct in understanding you to say that it's futile for experienced paddlers to try to illuminate elements of risk for the less experienced? I agree that people don't really "know" most things -- especially their limits, both positive and negative -- until they experience them, but I emphatically don't agree that people can't understand in the abstract where and how these limits are likely to be encountered. And with that understanding, thoughtful people can prepare as best they can. I like to think I'm a cautious and thoughtful (if slightly fearful at times) pusher of the envelope, and I believe that my preparation is partially motivated and supported by the discussions of risk on this list. Bob V *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Bob Volin wrote: > Shawn, am I correct in understanding you to say that it's futile for > experienced paddlers to try to illuminate elements of risk for the less > experienced? Well, no. I was simply stating that we need to be able to assess our own risk based on our own skills and conditions we will likely encounter. Not assessing my risk (as a novice/intermediate paddler) based on an expert like Doug's view of conditions. A lot of these conversations have stemmed from trip reports from advanced paddlers like Doug and Duane. Their writing styles are such that the casual paddling reader can see what risks they experience (as skilled paddlers). I am stating two things: their own words are enough to warn a responsible novice that they "should not try this at home, kids!"--that additional caveats and disclaimers by them or others reading the posts are unnecessary. I am also stating that irresponsible and stupid people will do irresponsible and stupid things, whether or not they are forewarned, and whether or not they get the idea from a skilled and talented expert. > I agree that people don't really "know" most things -- > especially their limits, both positive and negative -- until they experience > them, but I emphatically don't agree that people can't understand in the > abstract where and how these limits are likely to be encountered. Bob, I agree wholeheartedly. I think you misunderstood the tone of my statements. I have learned a great deal from Duane's and Doug's posts. Even though I have never and may never experience the same hairy situations, I can understand their actions in the abstract. The essence of my post was that personal responsibility is key. When Ralph posted that the euphoria created in a less-skilled reader could get them in trouble, I stated that personal reality checks and responsibility are critical, and not explicit warnings from the author and others that imitating their actions is risky. Shawn Ralph Diaz wrote: >>>Sometimes in the wake of telling a tale of >>>a risky situation overcomed through will and skill, a euphoria emerges >>>in the listener who might overlook that will and skill and think it is >>>okay to try the same without the will and skill. Shawn Baker wrote: > >And sometimes an irresponsible boater will go off and try something > >daring and stupid without will and skill, and without any ideas from > >experts who have overcome risky situations. > >If a person has [personal responsibility], they'll heed the warnings [of > >more experienced paddlers] and stay near their limits to learn and become more > >skilled boaters. If a person lacks that responsibility, no amount of warnings > >on a listserv will teach them the requisite responsibility. Shawn -- Shawn W. Baker 0 46°53'N © 1999 ____©/______ 114°06'W ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^\ ,/ /~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^ baker_at_montana.com 0 http://www.missoulaconcrete.com/shawn/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Shawn said: <snip> >>Well, no. I was simply stating that we need to be able to assess our own risk based on our own skills and conditions we will likely encounter.>> Now I like that statement! Actually, the whole recent thread has been illuminating new facets of this gem of a discussion -- and every time we bring it up out of the jewelry box and shine a light at it from a different angle. >>Not assessing my risk (as a novice/intermediate paddler) based on an expert like Doug's view of conditions.>> I always get a little embarrassed on this list when I'm referred to as an expert. I'm _not_ an expert; so if you ever meet me or paddle with me, and wonder what all the fuss was about, it wasn't _me_ who termed me as an expert, okay? I like to think of myself as an extreme enthusiast and one with a lot of cold water experience who has tried or attempted a number of things that many will never try or encounter. That doesn't make me an expert. It has left me with an abused, cortisone injected, cartilage screwed, tenon stretched body that still has difficulty resting at night. Not something to aspire to, believe you me. When I share stuff on this list, its to say' "Hey, you don't necessarily have to do this, like I have done, to enjoy the sport, and if you do, these can be the type of consequences". I've been a bit quiet on this list lately, but it hasn't anything to do with worrying about undue influence on novices or PW'ers leaning on me to curb discussion. I usually assume a degree of intelligence and rationality on the newbie's part, as that is usually the type of person drawn to sea kayaking in the first place. Having said that, I would still emphasis that it is the new paddlers RESPONSIBILITY to ensure they pursue and get adequate training, proper safety gear, outfit their boats accordingly, and gain experience gently. Though books like Andy Knapps help, it will NEVER be the responsibility, ultimately, of the retailer, tradesport, manufacturer, or magazines/cyber-lists, etc. I also don't think most of you on this list know what it is really like out there on the edge, when things go sideways. Yeah, sure, a lot of us get caught in a bad blow, get a bit shaken up in a tide-against-wind situation or some such thing. We get our asses a bit wet and our taste for adventure satiated for a time with lots of great pub tales. It's an entirely different matter when things go really wrong; when you wind up in the cold water, when landfall is hours away and chest cramps compress and almost suck the life out of your heart and soul, when you start physically crying and praying to some unknown benevolent force in the heavens to spare you and maybe let you see your loved ones again, or you do finally make landfall and barf so badly that bits of puke lodge in your sinuses. I know we are not all armchair kayakers on this list, but I do find it amusing some days to read posts about risk by folks who I know haven't even come close to any real thresholds (which is a good thing). I _can_ tell you what it is like to hit those thresholds: When it gets really bad, you won't even be there! That's right, there will be this giant thing called the "cruel" ocean, there will be this little cockle-shell of a kayak bobbing about with you either in it or out of it, and you will feel at times that you are floating above it all, not really there. It will never seem real enough or cold enough. Only, you are there, and it is really happening, it is really cold, and you really are in deep trouble. You beat yourself up continually, asking how you could let yourself get into such a predicament - perhaps again as in my case -- usually. I don't want others on this list to find out what it is like, really I don't. Most of the kayaking community in Victoria and Vancouver seem to think I do. But alas, no, an expert kayaker is one who keeps within their skill level, respects the environment, and has the intellectual honesty to admit that life is a grand adventure where no one person has all the answers but it _is_ fun learning and wondering what this infinite universe is all about. Be safe, everyone, and I _am_ glad to be part of this list and learn and share about our particular pursuit within this incredible universe. BC'in Ya Doug Lloyd (May the force be with you Jackie!) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug Lloyd wrote: LARGELY SNIPPED EXCEPT FOR THE POINT BELOW WHICH IS THE CRUX OF THIS CURRENT POSTING > curb discussion. I usually assume a degree of intelligence and rationality > on the newbie's part, as that is usually the type of person drawn to sea > kayaking in the first place. > > Having said that, I would still emphasis that it is the new paddlers > RESPONSIBILITY to ensure they pursue and get adequate training, proper > safety gear, outfit their boats accordingly, and gain experience gently. > Though books like Andy Knapps help, it will NEVER be the responsibility, > ultimately, of the retailer, tradesport, manufacturer, or > magazines/cyber-lists, etc. I guess a lot is riding on the word "ultimate" and I think it forgets something critical: A new paddler is very much like a baby. He or she is like a sponge absorbing everything she or he reads, hears and sees. What he or she reads, hears and sees comes from the retailer, tradeshow, manufacturer, magazines/cyber-lists and first hand observation of others on the water who are more advanced than them. Because of this, there is an awesome amount of responsibility resting on the shoulders of these providers of information just as there is on parents and child care providers to get the child off on the right track through their words and actions. Although I am about a dozen years removed from the first day I picked up a kayak paddle, I still remember vividly how much I was the sponge-like baby. Subscribing to every magazine I could (including buying all the back issues of Sea Kayaker then available), subscribing to Anorak, Canoe, (Paddler didn't exist then), and joining every club and organization that had any presence locally. If PaddleWise had existed then, I would have been a very absorbent lurker hanging on every word and seeking to measure and define my progress toward becoming a real sea kayaker in what I read others doing. Some of the providers of information back then were a bit casual in fulfilling their responsibility. An example: PFDS. The retailer I relied the most on did not encourage wearing a PFD and just suggested buying one of those $10 bright orange horse collar ones "to throw into the boat just in case the Coast Guard happens by." Sea Kayaker's ads hardly ever showed a paddler wearing a PFD and its covers (which were artform, not photos) depicted sea kayakers paddling in romantically idealic or rugged poses without a PFD on. (A year or two after I subscribed to Sea Kayaker, a fellow from these parts, Carl White of Anorak, wrote a letter to Sea Kayaker calling to question this practice; and Sea Kayaker then used as its cover subject an Inuit or Greenlandic paddler who of course would not be expected to have a PFD :-)). Sea Kayaker, to its credit, did eventually change on this and other safety issues and that retailer is no longer in business. These sources of information came (as they continue to now) at the all important point when the beginner is drinking in everything in huge volumes the way a baby does and when most impressionable. They did have an obligation or responsibility that they were not discharging faithfully. Sure they couldn't force someone to wear a PFD and in that sense, Doug, you are right: that responsiblity rests with the paddler. But by their words and actions these information providers were either discouraging the newcomer from wearing one (the retailer's very words) or giving the subliminal message in a romantic artful way that better sea kayakers don't wear them and leaving the impression that you, the beginner, need not. The PFD example above is just one and I know of many others from back then and many from right now. I maintain that retailers, mags, clubs, instructors and more experienced paddlers do have an enormous responsibility toward the newcomer. I am going to end this longish posting with a true story of just how impressionable people can be. Back a couple of centuries ago during the Napoleonic wars, the Portuguese royal court and all its entourage were forced to flee Lisbon and set up the crown in exile in the Portuguese colony of Brazil. While enroute a plague of lice forced them all to shave their heads. When the royal fleet arrived in Rio de Janeiro, local high society women sent their servants down to the docks to report back what was the latest fashion of the royal court. The servants observed the hairless women debarking the ships. By the next day, every society woman in Rio was walking around stark bald! ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
RALPH said: >I guess a lot is riding on the word "ultimate" and I think it forgets >something critical: A new paddler is very much like a baby. He or she >is like a sponge absorbing everything she or he reads, hears and sees. >What he or she reads, hears and sees comes from the retailer, tradeshow, >manufacturer, magazines/cyber-lists and first hand observation of others >on the water who are more advanced than them. <snip rest> Good post Ralph! A little more "down-to-earth" than my abstract "out-of-body-experience" post! I've only kept the above portion of your post, just to highlight again the word "ultimate". Just before I posted my message last night, I went back quickly and placed that word in there so nobody would think I was negating responsibility from the tradesport (etc). I guess you still took exception. Let me give you the context of my comment. In my first draft of the "Optimum Kayak" book review I did for SK Magazine, I wrote that Andy Knapp's new work was a welcome addition, _especially considering_ that so many kayaks are placed into the hands of raw newbies these days, due to a healthy used marketplace and fleet disposals at the end of the season, not to mention that retailers put so many more people into kayaks these days, and just don't have as much time as they used to, to go over everything. The editor disagreed with me, cut the comment as far as I know (I have not seen the final draft [I also mentioned Paddlewise which probably got cut too]), stating that responsibility for outfitting kayaks and becoming a safe paddler rests with the paddler, not the retailers; and that it was unfair to place too much emphasis on the retailers obligation. Rather, the retailer needs to be there, yes, with complete information, but it is up to the new paddler to intelligently pursue in ernest all the info needed. I didn't totally agree, but they sign the cheque and I have no scruples when it comes to funding my next gear purchase ;-) As far as new paddlers being like new children, I have found it is often the younger (generational I mean) who looks into all the angles. Many of the difficulties I have seen have come from men over 50 who think they know it all and don't suss out all the details or get adequate training. And as far as responsibility vis a vis the recent Darwin analogy, I'll share a little story too. A friend was waiting out some poor weather, anchoring her sailboat up an inlet near Knight Inlet on BC's mainland coast. Two men in a home-made, plywood hovercraft sporadically made there way into the inlet, ashen-faced and frustrated. Seems they couldn't make proper progress in their new craft -- too much chop. The skipper-lady leaned over and said the weather only got worse the further North one goes. These two guys were in jeans with see-through vinyl "raingear" (cheap, cheap, cheap) and a couple of rucksacks. Oh, BTW, they were headed to Anchorage from Seattle! BC'in Ya Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug Lloyd wrote: > > RALPH said: > > >I guess a lot is riding on the word "ultimate" and I think it forgets > >something critical: A new paddler is very much like a baby. He or she > >is like a sponge absorbing everything she or he reads, hears and sees. > >What he or she reads, hears and sees comes from the retailer, tradeshow, > >manufacturer, magazines/cyber-lists and first hand observation of others > >on the water who are more advanced than them. <snip rest> > > Good post Ralph! A little more "down-to-earth" than my abstract > "out-of-body-experience" post! I've only kept the above portion of your > post, just to highlight again the word "ultimate". Just before I posted my > message last night, I went back quickly and placed that word in there so > nobody would think I was negating responsibility from the tradesport (etc). > I guess you still took exception. Let me give you the context of my comment. It is all of matter of balance and shared responsibility. Some lies with the new person who is in need of the information and some lies with those in a position to help out and send the person off in the right direction. Having established that, I hope we can move on to other subjects. I seem to recall your talking about the dangers way out there and I assume you meant in rough waters far from shore. But so many accidents involving seakayakers usually are closer to shore where water, wind and earth meet. One particular danger zone is when coming out from behind the shelter of an island or headland and being hit broadside by wind and waves. Dozens of incidents have occured in such areas. I can name six pretty well known ones which resulted in fatalities or near fatalities. One service PaddleWise can provide is to point out that danger. A lot of paddlers, from all the accidents that happen in such situations, are not aware of the forces at play in such areas. One piece of sound advice is to avoid such situations. But there are some decent strategies to prevent being knocked over if you do feel a need to continue your trip, strategies that won't tax your bracing and rolling skills. One that I have found is to move away from the challenging area. This may sound wimpy but it works. The wrong way is to try to hug the shore line and then go into the open area being racked by winds and waves. The transition from shelter to exposure is so abrupt that you may wind up dumping unless your bracing is sharp and you quarter just right into the forces. The better strategy is not to paddle into the area of sharp transition at all. Instead seek where the transition is less abrupt and forceful and that usually lies downwind from the island. Say that you are behind an island that is sheltering you from winds and waves coming from the north and you basically are traveling west to east. Instead of staying on your west to east course close to shore and risk the abrupt hit by the northern winds and waves, head south a bit away from the island. As you move in that direction you are getting away from the abrupt transition zone. You will still get lots of wind but when you turn to move from west to east again you won't have the sheering effect you get if paddling close to the island and into the exposed wind and waves. I bet the disruptive forces are 50 per cent less powerful and destabilizing in this more gradual transition zone and that can make a difference between a capsize and paddling on. Also if you find that things are still too dicey in that more gradual area, you have a better chance of changing your mind and retreating than if you get hit in the more abrupt zone where you may not have as much boat control. Going down range that way has the danger of being blown away and not be able to get back to the shelter of the island. But if you do this gingerly, this won't happen. Also, it is, as said above, a good way to test whether you want to continue and instead retreat without committing yourself to harsher forces. >From what I have seen, a lot of paddlers don't realize this. Certainly the accident reports underline the lack of knowledge of this. I never see any of the sea kayak manuals addressing this nor instructors bringing this up. And yet it is such a common area for accidents that are avoidable with some forethought. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I wrote late last night: >>That's right, there will be this giant thing called the "cruel" ocean, there will be this little cockle-shell of a kayak bobbing about with you either in it or out of it, and you will feel at times that you are floating above it all, not really there. It will never seem real enough or cold enough.>> I know this sounds a bit weird, but its not "off the wall". It really does tend to go down like this. Hours can pass by, huge unaccounted blocks of time, and you hardly know it. I've been in enough situations and interviewed enough people over the years to know what I wrote is true. I'll pass on some of my own accounts as time goes on, and I also have some incident reports from the 80's I can drag out if you want. BC'in Ya Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug wrote: > I also have some incident reports from the 80's I can drag out if you want. Yeah we want them! *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 2/25/00 3:19:51 PM, dlloyd_at_telus.net writes: << I know this sounds a bit weird, but its not "off the wall". It really does tend to go down like this. Hours can pass by, huge unaccounted blocks of time, and you hardly know it. I've been in enough situations and interviewed enough people over the years to know what I wrote is true. I'll pass on some of my own accounts as time goes on, and I also have some incident reports from the 80's I can drag out if you want. >> Please do! Jed *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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