At the risk of a public flogging, I have to point out that this issue may never be resolved. I believe in personal responsibility and expect no more from suppliers and instructors than accurate information. We're right back into talking about things that suggest legislating good judgment. Out society is rife with examples of misplaced responsibilities. I won't cite specific examples in order to avoid political topics on this paddling site. I live in New Hampshire where centuries of self-determination have bred self-sufficient and self-reliant people. We in general believe that you should live as you please and we will do the same. If the same effort was applied towards teaching our brethren to take personal responsibility for their actions (as we exert towards the industry to assume responsibility for us) then I believe we would be significantly more effective in our efforts. Just a few other minor notes: Retailers sell stuff, no sale / no food. They often employ people that are not avid paddlers and hence, should not be considered an accurate source of information. They'll tell you what they sell is the best, this is why they exist, it's their job. Magazines are in the business of secondary marketing and while they can afford to be less biased than the retailers the nature of their revenue generating mechanism leaves me somewhat suspect as well. Clubs are a different matter. Here there is the opportunity for at least evenly biased information. But to burden clubs with such awesome responsibility seems unfair. Clubs in general are driven by "well intentioned" (there's that phrase again) and sharing people. And while I consider clubs an excellent source of information I don't hold them responsible for all of the actions of their membership. Instructors have the responsibility to teach safety, good technique and environmental awareness. But can they be held accountable to the actions of their former students? They are not gods and cannot teach good judgment. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
LedJube_at_aol.com wrote: > > At the risk of a public flogging, I have to point out that this issue may > never be resolved. Jed, no flogging (unless you are into S&M and really want one :-)). You have quite good points which I have snipped for space reasons. I just want to follow up on one thought you raised: > Retailers sell stuff, no sale / no food. They often employ people that > are not avid paddlers and hence, should not be considered an accurate source > of information. They'll tell you what they sell is the best, this is why they > exist, it's their job. Interesting point. A year or so ago, there was discussion in one of the east coast listservers regarding what one local club could do. I am not a member of it and never heard more about what direction things eventually took if at all. But there were on-line discussions and proposals to do some active work with retailers beyond just handing out club applications and notices for the retailers to have around. One idea (mine) was to offer store management visits by several designated club members with a store's sales staff to discuss cold water safety, good places to paddle etc. so that they understood local situations better and could deal intelligently with potential consumers. I felt that the point of sale (i.e. the sales person) is a critical juncture in getting people started on the right path and making staff smarter would be a very effective way to do so. I got the idea from being in stores and watching one interesting example of the profit motive at play. At times I have seen manufacturing reps come in to sit with store sales staff in some corner to discuss newest backpack internal frames, clothing materials, etc. The manufacturers clearly wanted to sell product and recognized that the store sales staff is an important clog in the machinery. It could work for safety considerations as well. Another proposal made by several people was to work up a list of local retailers for distribution by the club at shows, club meetings, in answer to queries, etc. This list would contain _just_ the names of those shops that seemed to be more responsible in the information they give to buyers regarding equipment, instructional needs and safety advice. Retail stores would be told of the list and its intention and the thought was that the list could act as a prod toward fostering retailers into getting their sales people into being more savvy on sea kayaking. One can argue the specifics of my or the other proposal, but they certainly are a pro-active approach that beats sitting on one's hands and doing nothing. I am a firm believer in trying to change things for the better. And I agree that government intervention and legislation is not the answer. One does not have to live in New Hampshire to have the spirit of "Live Free or Die" which I believe is your state's motto, Jed. :-) ralph -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 2/25/00 7:24:03 PM, rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com writes: << Jed, no flogging (unless you are into S&M and really want one :-)).>> There is some concern recently that I may need/deserve/enjoy a good flogging. Give me a few days to explore the bondage sites and I'll get back to you on this question. << But there were on-line discussions and proposals to do some active work with retailers beyond just handing out club applications and notices for the retailers to have around.>> A partnership with local responsible retailers can only benefit our sport. The groups that I'm involved with are taking this approach although the retailers can only afford to allocate a limited amount of resources to this effort. The degree to which club members make their associations clear will determine the level of acceptance and cooperation from local retailers. As always money talks. << One does not have to live in New Hampshire to have the spirit of "Live Free or Die" which I believe is your state's motto, Jed.>> Or as a friend, fellow Paddlewiser and local club member prefers to paraphrase: LIVE, FREEZE OR DIE !! I can almost smell the new boat, now what I need is warm water so I can stay wet behind the ears. Take care all! Thank goodness for indoor pools during the coldest weather. Jed *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Outfit3029_at_aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 2/25/00 7:24:03 PM !!!First Boot!!!, rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com > writes: > > << One idea (mine) was to offer store management visits by several > designated club members with a store's sales staff to discuss cold water > safety, good places to paddle etc. so that they understood local > situations better and could deal intelligently with potential > consumer >> > > The extreme majority of paddling shops that I have been in are small > operations. Owner operators or paddlers that work at paddling shops by > choice, the owner may be at their real job earning a living. Paddling shops > are generally operated for the passion not the paycheck. If they are profit > driven they tend to be financially sound but fail in the message delivery > dept. > > Perhaps I am just mis-experienced. I should have clarified that this referred not to small paddling shops, which by definition are generally peopled by knowledgeable dedicated staff. I was thinking of generally outdoor shops such as REI, EMS, etc. and some larger paddling shops. These shops often don't have sales staff that understand kayaks and they have been known to give out disastrous info. Greg Hollingworth mentioned here, I think last year, the advice he had gotten from one of those large outdoor shops. He was told it would be okay to paddle over cold water as long as he stayed near shore!!! ralph -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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