The thread on safety has got me curious about how risky kayaking really is. How does it compare to say bicycling, skiing, motorcycling, parachuting, hiking, other outdoor activities, etc? Thanks, Peter *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
"Dr. Peter Rand" wrote: > > The thread on safety has got me curious about how risky kayaking really is. > How does it compare to say bicycling, skiing, motorcycling, parachuting, > hiking, other outdoor activities, etc? Like a lot of other things, it depends on what type of skiing, motorcycling, hiking, etc., you are comparing it to. My subjective scan: if you avoid tide races and surf zones, and are a novice/beginner sea kayaker, it is similar to hiking and biking in risk, with one important difference: in hiking and biking, it is easy to STOP the activity and sort out your choices. Many times sea kayaking, you do not have that choice, and can not get off the water readily. Consequence: a storm which would only be an annoyance if hiking might be very threatening if you can not get off the water. This makes the risk in sea kayaking much more insidious: you can get into trouble and be unaware you are in trouble until you are in a situation where you can not escape it. In hiking, you can STOP. Sometimes in sea kayaking you can not. If you are an adrenaline junkie, and train for surf zones and tide races -- and regularly expose yourself to them -- it is maybe as dangerous as off-road motorcycling, and similar to sport rock climbing, but not as dangerous as alpine climbing, with its higher objective hazards (stonefall, avalanches, etc.). Maybe about as risky as glacier-walking such as people do out here to climb the "easy" routes on Mt Baker, Mt Adams, Mt Hood, and Mt Rainier. I don't think anybody has any actuarial data to compare sea kayaking to other sports, because accident/injury/fatality information is mostly anecdotal, and there is no one (to my knowledge) "tracking" accidents, unlike the case for North American mountaineering, which is summarized each year by the AAC. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Sun, 27 Feb 2000 08:38:38 +0100, you wrote: >The thread on safety has got me curious about how risky kayaking really is. >How does it compare to say bicycling, skiing, motorcycling, parachuting, >hiking, other outdoor activities, etc? >From my study of cases for my book on Recreation and the Law (in Canada) kayaking/paddling is very safe. I recall almost no paddling cases arising from negligence, although there have been a couple of Coroner's Inquest coming out of fatalities which arose on trips. The Coroner was concern about the actions of the guides, level of skill of the participants, separation of the group, fatigue, weather, etc.. There are quite a few skiing accidents, especially downhill skiing where people have not taken care in watching for others, trail markers, drinking, etc.. There was one x-c skiing fatality where unprepared people became lost on a trail (they started backwards late in the day). Skiing accidents, like those of other outdoor activities like swimming, can be either negligence (actions of someone; for example, in not keeping a lookout) or occupiers' liability (condition of the premises; for example, no marker for a drop-off or nails sticking out of a launching dock). There are a number of cases involving horse-back riding involving fitness of the horse for the skill level of the rider, care/training of guides, and equipment (was the saddle tight enough, was the strap worn). Cases from other areas of law can be very helpful when considering what to do or not do while paddling, leading a group, or sponsoring an activity. Some years ago there was a short article in Time Magazine describing the lawsuit started by some visitors to a US National Park. There were standing under a tree which was struck by lightning. They sued the US Forest Service claiming damages because there was no sign warning of the dangers of standing under it during a lightning storm. While they were unsuccessful, it was a good example of the tendency of some to litigate. I was hoping to present a session on "Liability in the Outdoors" at the East Coast Canoe & Kayak Festival this year, but circumstances happened that I couldn't commit to the session. Hopefully next year... When I did a similar session at the Canadian Canoe Symposium last August there was considerable interest in waivers and the liability of trip leaders. For example, would a volunteer trip leader who was (BCU) certified be held to a higher standard of care than a trip leader who was not certified? How good are waivers? Does it make a difference if the participant is young/old? How much pre-trip testing should take place to determine the skill level of the participant? I'm hoping to reproduce my book from the American perspective. I have time off this coming year. Currently I am trying to interest a US publisher in my project. :-) --- cheers, Stephen stephen.bird_at_superaje.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Sun, 27 Feb 2000 09:41:52 -0500 (EST), you wrote: >>Waivers are virtually useless. Win or lose a lawsuit can put a small >>operator out of business. I wonder how many operators have or can afford liability insurance? >Based on the outcome of the most recent (actually, the only) WW rafting >death on the Nantahala, having a waiver may or may not help you, I just did a quick search of North Carolina cases using "Nantahala" but found no reports of this WW rafting mishap. It may be that it was settled without a trial/reported decision which, to add to Dave's earlier posting, is not the best way to know or report on paddling accidents vs climbing accidents reported by the AAC. >... but NOT having one is the kiss of death if there is an accident. >In that incident, a girl on a school rafting trip fell out of a raft, >was foot-entrapped, and drowned. There are lots and lots of school cases with problems with both equipment (eg, gymnastic mats) and supervision (eg, a school outing along a river). >From the reports I read, it seems likely that she was wearing her PFD >too loose and that she attempted to stand in the current. She certainly >had received the pre-trip safety instruction. Good that she had the pre-trip safety instruction, but poor that the guide and teacher didn't notice how she was wearing her PFD. I imagine that both guide and teacher were somewhat pre-occupied with the river. Probably some contributory negligence there on the part of the girl. Maybe a "buddy system" would have been helpful to keep equipment properly worn. >Of course, no one wants to blame a victim, expecially a 16-y.o. girl. The >judgment was against the school/teacher and the Nantahala Outdoor Center >for not having provided the parent an opportunity to give informed consent >via a waiver. AFAIK, and understand that I am relying on Internet reports, >there was no allegation or admission of any on-the-water negligence. Interesting outcome which provides compensation for the parents of the girl without having to deal with the respective liability of the parties. Informed consent and the use of waivers is always important. The presence of signs or forms/tickets excluding liability (at a ski hill, for example) are not enough if they have not been brought to the attention of the skier. The difficult part is in balancing informed consent without scaring away potential customers. --- cheers, Stephen stephen.bird_at_superaje.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Sun, 27 Feb 2000, Stephen Bird wrote: > I just did a quick search of North Carolina cases using "Nantahala" but > found no reports of this WW rafting mishap. It may be that it was settled > without a trial/reported decision which, to add to Dave's earlier posting, > is not the best way to know or report on paddling accidents vs climbing > accidents reported by the AAC. It was my understanding that the insurance companies involved settled before any litigation. > Good that she had the pre-trip safety instruction, but poor that the guide > and teacher didn't notice how she was wearing her PFD. I imagine that both > guide and teacher were somewhat pre-occupied with the river. Probably some > contributory negligence there on the part of the girl. Maybe a "buddy > system" would have been helpful to keep equipment properly worn. The suggestion of a buddy system is a very good one. This was most likely an unguided trip, as the Nantahala is mostly Class II. The raft was probably occupied only by other teenagers. Which reminds me of another aspect of the settlement: the NOC will no longer rent rafts for unguided trips without a person of some specific age (16? 18?) in the group. Which means that a group of cadet and junior slalom racers can paddle the Class III Falls in training all day in a training camp, but cannot boat the same river in a raft. > Interesting outcome which provides compensation for the parents of the girl > without having to deal with the respective liability of the parties. I thought it was interesting, as I cannot make a case for the outfitter being liable for the death, per se. Steve Cramer *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dave, Like me, you tend to be a person of many words in answering a question. :-). But deep inside your explanation about how dangerous is seakayaking is one word that says it all: INSIDIOUS. That is the danger of seakayaking; it lurks beneath the surface ready to pounce on you. Thanks for a thorough explanation. ralph Dave Kruger wrote: > > "Dr. Peter Rand" wrote: > > > > The thread on safety has got me curious about how risky kayaking really is. > > How does it compare to say bicycling, skiing, motorcycling, parachuting, > > hiking, other outdoor activities, etc? > > Like a lot of other things, it depends on what type of skiing, motorcycling, > hiking, etc., you are comparing it to. > > My subjective scan: if you avoid tide races and surf zones, and are a > novice/beginner sea kayaker, it is similar to hiking and biking in risk, with > one important difference: in hiking and biking, it is easy to STOP the > activity and sort out your choices. Many times sea kayaking, you do not have > that choice, and can not get off the water readily. Consequence: a storm > which would only be an annoyance if hiking might be very threatening if you can > not get off the water. This makes the risk in sea kayaking much more > insidious: you can get into trouble and be unaware you are in trouble until > you are in a situation where you can not escape it. In hiking, you can STOP. > Sometimes in sea kayaking you can not. > > If you are an adrenaline junkie, and train for surf zones and tide races -- and > regularly expose yourself to them -- it is maybe as dangerous as off-road > motorcycling, and similar to sport rock climbing, but not as dangerous as > alpine climbing, with its higher objective hazards (stonefall, avalanches, > etc.). Maybe about as risky as glacier-walking such as people do out here to > climb the "easy" routes on Mt Baker, Mt Adams, Mt Hood, and Mt Rainier. > > I don't think anybody has any actuarial data to compare sea kayaking to other > sports, because accident/injury/fatality information is mostly anecdotal, and > there is no one (to my knowledge) "tracking" accidents, unlike the case for > North American mountaineering, which is summarized each year by the AAC. > > -- > Dave Kruger > Astoria, OR > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not > to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dave Kruger wrote: > I don't think anybody has any actuarial data to compare sea kayaking to other > sports, because accident/injury/fatality information is mostly anecdotal, and > there is no one (to my knowledge) "tracking" accidents, unlike the case for > North American mountaineering, which is summarized each year by the AAC. Even if actuarial data is available, it is interesting that it doesn't reflect in realistic appraisals of risk by the insurance companies. Ski jumping is safer than downhill skiing, yet if you read the small print on your insurance contract, it is likely to be void for ski jumping with nothing said for downhill skiing. I've stayed out of these discussions on risk up to now. I did research on risk and safety applied to load factors in engineering for a master's thesis (unfinished). One of the things that was frustrating to me was the complete lack of correlation between measured risk and perceived risk. What's the point of measuring risk if the response of the vast majority of people is to ignore the measurements and respond purely with emotion? (Eg. drive versus fly). Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
ralph diaz wrote: > > Dave, > > Like me, you tend to be a person of many words in answering a question. > :-). Guilty. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>From Stephen Bird's posting:- | >>Waivers are virtually useless. Win or lose a lawsuit can put a small | >>operator out of business. | | I wonder how many operators have or can afford liability insurance? I wonder what clubs in the US do about potential liability for personal injury. Our club here is currently going through a period of discussion about how best to avoid problems. My take is:- 1. Be careful. You will be, but things go wrong anyway, so... 2. Agree on an exemption clause in the club's constitution excluding liability, and ... 3. Carry suitable insurance, as exemption clauses are not reliable when litigation follows. Regards, Peter T. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 01:55 PM 2/28/00 +1100, Peter Treby wrote: >From Stephen Bird's posting:- >| >>Waivers are virtually useless. Win or lose a lawsuit can put a small >| >>operator out of business. >| >| I wonder how many operators have or can afford liability insurance? > >I wonder what clubs in the US do about potential liability for personal >injury. Our club here is currently going through a period of discussion >about how best to avoid problems. My take is:- >1. Be careful. You will be, but things go wrong anyway, so... >2. Agree on an exemption clause in the club's constitution excluding >liability, and ... >3. Carry suitable insurance, as exemption clauses are not reliable when >litigation follows. >Regards, Peter T. > > The Florida Sea Kayaking Association http://www.jacksonville.net/~dldecker/fska.htm is a ACA Paddle America club http://www.acanet.org/acanet.htm and uses the ACA insurance and release forms. I think release forms show that you tried to inform the paddlers that there is a danger. After years of talking about it and research, it is the best way for us to go. I would recommend it to any club(in the US). I never could find any validation of a club being sued, but liability issues keep many from being trip leaders. Near as I can find out after talking to many lawyers the most experienced paddler on the trip, whether they were leading the trip or not, would be the most liable, trip leader, then all the rest down the line. Several clubs have gone the route that they are not real clubs( no dues) and you go at your own risk, but the lawyers say the same liability as above (most experienced paddler)would take place. This advice was given free of charge from some paddling lawyers. Beside you can sue anybody for any reason whether it holds any water (pun) or not. Advice given to me personally was not to have any personal insurance or holdings for a lawyer to go after. This would not do outfitters, Companys or clubs any good , but sense I am just a poor kayaker who had to scrape up the money to pay the high registration fee for the Charleston symposium and don't own a pot to **** in I should be safe, but feel safer with the ACA behind me on club trips. Luckily I have never had a problem on a trip that would let me find out what really would happen. Dana I got a plug in for our club(FSKA) and the ACA and am affiliated to both :) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Fred Excellent point ! The "group dynamic" should be focused on the least capable. No army marches faster than it's slowest soldier. When I take a person out for the first time, I want it to be a good experience for them. That means backing off when they get nervous and calling it a day when they start to tire, not when they're exhausted. Just engaging in a new activity uses up a lot of energy. Often the most skillful are the poorest leaders. It's all they can do to slow down enough to keep their companions on the edge of fear and exhaustion. I've been on both sides of these paddles. Some folks I won't go out with because I know I'll wreck my day trying to keep up with them. After I take out a person who has never paddled, it takes 3 solo paddles to get my mind right again. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "CA Kayaker" <cakayak_at_mindspring.com> When paddling with a group we should not be > afraid to speak out to the stronger members that we are getting in over our > heads or simply don't feel comfortable with the conditions. Certainly not > afraid of embarrassing ourselves in front of more experienced > paddlers. That is what I consider an avoidable and unnecessary risk - > group dynamics that ultimately put all at risk. > > Fred E. Thomas > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Mon, 28 Feb 2000 19:54:22 -0800, you wrote: >Excellent point ! The "group dynamic" should be focused on the least >capable. No army marches faster than it's slowest soldier. ... Here is one of the challenges for a guide/outfitter... how to match group members. I find that going with the slowest, whether in sea kayak, canoe, or x-c skiing, can be problematic when the slowest has been mixed in with others much more skilled. What to do if you are an accomplished paddler who has no input into the group's composition? It seems to be fairly difficult to keep certain efficiencies of stroke and direction while having to paddle/ski slowly with frequent stops while the novice paddles back & forth using extra energy trying to maintain a course. It isn't enough to simply match the best with the worst, as that isn't what either bargained for... what both probably wanted is a group of more-or-less peers. What about using a "reference" requirement on an application form where the participant has to have another paddler indicate the person's skill level, perhaps with specifics about experience, trips, duration, skills, etc.. If the group is home-grown, then you get what you choose. However, if you join a commercial trip, then what are your reasonable expectations? If you are a good paddler paying full fare, then is it fair that you should become a caretaker to a novice paddler with the leader's expectation that this will slow you down while providing the novice with some extra assistance without involving the group leader with this responsibility? How do folks handle this kind of situation... --- cheers, Stephen stephen.bird_at_superaje.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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