A back channel exchange re: Folbot washboard, posted with Ralph's permision. I'd also be intersted in the experiences of others re: effects of washboard failure. Thanks. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR -- Dave Kruger wrote: > > Over on the Folbot Forum, the claim was made that the washboards are a vital > structural element for the Greenland II (and the other models, one presumes). > And, because of the precarious nature of the hinge which joins the halves, that > the boat could fail if: > > 1. the hinge pins fail > > and, 2. the boat is subjected to strong upward forces at the ends > > I think what the poster was imagining was the boat in heavy seas, crossing the > trough at right angles to the wave crests. > > I've had my G II out in 5-6 foot swells and wondered what would happen if the > washboards failed, but it seems to me the longerons and keel members would > sustain the shape if the washboard hinge failed. (I noticed the hinge > attachments were getting sloppy in my '96 model so I replaced the rivets with > #10 SS hardware and put large fender washers on the outside of the washboards. > Much more rigid, now.) > > What do you think about the likelihood of catastrophic failure if the > washboards go? To which Ralph Diaz replied: Dave, The washboard is _one_ of the things holding the boat together. But a lot of redundancy is built into the Folbot and other folding kayaks as well. The gunwale side structures with their double tubes and spacer reinforcements form sort of I-beams that do a lot of the holding together as does of course the keelboard. Then of course the crossframe pieces do a lot too to keep the structure sound and so to do the longerons to a certain extent especially the beefy ones on Folbots (the Klepper ones are not as strong and act more to help shape the hull then to hold the boat together). If a washboard (or coaming as other manufacturers call this) were to fail, you would lose some of the boat's integrity and it would start feeling floppy but it would not break apart. When I was testing the Aleut back in 1992 or whenever it was, my washboard broke on one side. It was where the seatback bolt end went through the washboard. Polycarbonate is a material that doesn't do well with drilled holes and the hole for the supporting bolt for the seatback cracked up and down and one washboard spit apart at that screwhole. All that happened was that the boat got a bit sloppier and I had to hold my self in position rather than have my back resting on something. The most noticeable effect in performance was that the boat slowed down more than its usual self (the Aleut is slow). And it came at an unfortunate time as I was paddling with some recreational paddlers in hardshells. I was just managing to keep up with them with the Aleut even with its natural slowness. But once the washboard broke, I could not keep up. I reported this to Folbot and eventually they made a fix in that model with some bushing protecting the hole from splitting. I did not mention it in the review because I felt it was something that Folbot would correct and no use bashing Folbot over it. It seemed to have also happened to some early users of the Aleut and I did have one article in the newsletter about how one paddler applied extra bracing in the area of those holes in order to avoid breakage. [I had a washboard in my G II fail in the same spot when I sat on the washboard during entry. The new aluminum washboard should not fail this way. DK] Again, to get to your question of cathastropic failure. A split washboard won't be a disaster since there is so much redundancy built into the frame. The place that you may have to watch out more on any of the folding kayaks is the keelboard. I know of the keelboard breaking on a Folbot double and on a Klepper double. This happened where the horseshoe and block connection is made dead center in the boat. Either the horseshoe or the block came off. In both cases it was quite disconcerning and in the case of one of the crews, they felt that the boat would break apart. I feel that they were a bit panicky about such dire consequences and that the rest of the frame would have seen them through albeit with a somewhat scary feeling. The side gunwales, the stringers, the ribs and the coaming (washboard) would keep the boat together sufficiently well. If people are really concerned about this they can try some experiments. Take the boat out under controlled conditions _without_ connecting the washboard at all. The cross frame pieces won't be connected fully and the skin will look somewhat funny, flapping around at the cockpit opening. But the boat will definitely float and move around well enough and not break apart. Dave, if you wish to pass this observation on to the Forum, you have my permission. ralph diaz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Just an added note on redundancy of frame parts and loose connections on folding kayaks. I know of situations in which people with double Kleppers have forgotten to bring a part or two. For example, in one instance, the paddlers misplaced a crossrib and one of the gunwale bars (there are four, two that run from the bow to midship and two from the stern to midship). They just carried on and the boat held up fine albeit not looking quite as fully formed in its outward appearance lines. I myself had the gunwale bar of a K-Light come undone. I was doing a a 5 minute TV segment for a local station show involving me leaving my home, going up to the Small Boat Shop in South Norwalk Connecticut, assembling the boat and going out with friends for a paddle to a nearby island. During the assembly process when I was repeating some steps for a better camera angle, I failed to fully engage a slider on the starboard gunwale bar in the cockpit area. On the water, it came totally loose. I didn't notice until about halfway to the island. I tried reattaching it underway but it was awkward to do. All this meant was that my frame was sagging a bit in the middle on that side but it was not at all affecting speed or performance. I fixed it when we got to the island. But it is forever immortalized on the videotape. Any time I play it I am mortified but perhaps I am the only one who has noticed this. Any body who has ever built a boat or a house or house addition, knows that feeling about the little mistakes one made. You see it glaring at you but others never notice. That videotape is like that for me, like a cavity filling that seems at first to fill your entire mouth. ralph diaz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
ralph diaz wrote: > > I myself had the gunwale bar of a K-Light come undone. I was doing a a > 5 minute TV segment for a local station show involving me leaving my > home, going up to the Small Boat Shop in South Norwalk Connecticut, > assembling the boat and going out with friends for a paddle to a nearby > island. I have been trying to figure out how fast beyond the speed of light Ralph had to paddle to make up the drive and assembly for a final time of 5 minutes... -- : : Gabriel L Romeu : http://studiofurniture.com furniture from the workshop : http://members.xoom.com/gabrielR life as a tourist, daily journal : http://users.aol.com/romeugp paintings, photographs, etchings, objects *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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