In a message dated 2/21/00 11:03:40 PM Pacific Standard Time, dlloyd_at_bc.sympatico.ca writes: << What I find difficult to understand is those on this list who do get out into some more difficult conditions, usually pull-back before the going gets really rough (which is good on them), yet give others a hard time and call the need to use some of these skills like sculling and rolling as a sign of some kind of failure. >> Doug, I feel I need to respond to this as I believe you are still smarting from my remarks on an earlier post calling the need to do a rescue the result of failure. This comment was certainly not directed at you. I tend to be in the same group as you and Duane in that I too enjoy pushing the envelope and will consequently capsize on a regular basis. I still consider this to be a type of failure, in that I was testing my limits and I found them. But in this case failure is not necessarily a bad thing. If I am testing the breaking point of an object by stressing it, do we not refer to the point of breaking as a failure? But this is all besides the point. In the context of this, and other newsgroups, when I respond to a question I try to take into consideration who I am talking to. I do not want to give beginners the impression that what they need to do to learn this sport is throw their boat into some hairy situation and try to survive it. What MOST paddlers need to do is to practice NOT capsizing. They need to learn how to walk before they run. The perfect example of this is the recent discussion about not being able to roll at the end of the day because the folks are too tired. I cannot ever remember being too tired to perform a roll. Obviously these folks need to work on their roll. I do not, for the most part, direct my responses to the likes of you. Once someone reaches your level they certainly do not need my help. But please try to understand that the less experienced paddlers still need to work on the basics, and for them, under normal circumstances, needing to be rescued is the result of a failure on their part. I said it, I believe it, and if this offends somebody - too bad. Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
KiAyker_at_aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 2/21/00 11:03:40 PM Pacific Standard Time, > dlloyd_at_bc.sympatico.ca writes: > > << What I find difficult to understand is those on > this list who do get out into some more difficult conditions, usually > pull-back before the going gets really rough (which is good on them), yet > give others a hard time and call the need to use some of these skills like > sculling and rolling as a sign of some kind of failure. >> > > Doug, > > I feel I need to respond to this as I believe you are still smarting from > my remarks on an earlier post calling the need to do a rescue the result of > failure. This comment was certainly not directed at you. I tend to be in the > same group as you and Duane in that I too enjoy pushing the envelope and will > consequently capsize on a regular basis. I still consider this to be a type > of failure, in that I was testing my limits and I found them. But in this > case failure is not necessarily a bad thing. If I am testing the breaking > point of an object by stressing it, do we not refer to the point of breaking > as a failure? > But this is all besides the point. In the context of this, and other > newsgroups, when I respond to a question I try to take into consideration who > I am talking to. I do not want to give beginners the impression that what > they need to do to learn this sport is throw their boat into some hairy > situation and try to survive it. What MOST paddlers need to do is to practice > NOT capsizing. They need to learn how to walk before they run. The perfect > example of this is the recent discussion about not being able to roll at the > end of the day because the folks are too tired. I cannot ever remember being > too tired to perform a roll. Obviously these folks need to work on their > roll. I do not, for the most part, direct my responses to the likes of you. > Once someone reaches your level they certainly do not need my help. But > please try to understand that the less experienced paddlers still need to > work on the basics, and for them, under normal circumstances, needing to be > rescued is the result of a failure on their part. > I said it, I believe it, and if this offends somebody - too bad. > > Scott > So.Cal. Everyone should indeed choose to paddle as they please and are prepared for. Doug certainly is among the most skilled and experienced paddlers on the PaddleWise list. Although things have gone wrong on at least one of his trips as he pushes the envelop, he can handle it for the most part and has the calculus of risk well worked out in his mind and in the seat of his pants. Having said that, I think Scott also has a point. It is not, from my reading of what Scott says above, an anti-Doug point or an anti-risk or anti-individual paddling philosophy. It is just a heads-up that is capsulized in his statement "when I respond to a question I try to take into consideration who I am talking to. I do not want to give beginners the impression that what they need to do to learn this sport is throw their boat into some hairy situation and try to survive it." Part of the "problem" of PaddleWise is that it houses both elite paddlers of long experience and high skill with newcomers and others of lesser skill and experience. Sometimes in the wake of telling a tale of a risky situation overcomed through will and skill, a euphoria emerges in the listener who might overlook that will and skill and think it is okay to try the same without the will and skill. Doug has often gone through great pains to say something along the lines "Hey, this is me. I know my turf. I have the skills and a lust for testing myself and these in dicey situations. Don't do as I do unless you are prepared to deal with the situation if it goes awry." Trouble is that Doug is so good at telling his tales of adventure that it is easy for some paddlers to be lulled into not taking into account the experience and skills that allow Doug to survive and thrive in the waters he likes to paddle. I am reminded of something that Dr. Hannes Lindemann said when I interviewed him for my newsletter back in 1993 regarding his crossing the Atlantic in a double kayak 40 years earlier. Certainly what Lindemann did would make Doug and all of us blanche. Here is how the paragraph went in my article. "Dr. Lindemann attaches great importance to this strength (me: I was referring to the previous paragraph about his small-boating skills par excellance). In our interview it came out during a question I asked regarding how he sees sea kayaking today. He used the question to focus on the issue of required skills. While he is happy to see a resurgence in the sport he feels that many kayakers venture out unprepared. 'I think people want to do things with a bang. They go too fast, rah rah. They are suicidal' Regarding his own perilous voyage, he said 'It is alright to attempt things when you have the experience.' " Doug and Lindemann through good story telling make the adventures alluring but with their easy familiarity with their surroundings inadvertently hid the deep skills that allow them to survive there. Their element of "risk" is greatly reduced by that familiarity. It doesn't hurt, as Scott has attempted, to keep reminding ourselves of that as a reality check on enthusiastic imitation. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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