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From: <LedJube_at_aol.com>
subject: [Paddlewise] Rolling was Instability...
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 18:28:01 EST
In a message dated 2/1/00 6:24:53 PM, rob_cookson_at_mindspring.com writes:

<< While this may be true, what is the advantage of extending a western paddle

if you are not using it to get more support?  My point is that a sweep roll

should be 90% hips and 10% arms (no this is not meant to be an exact ratio).

When you extend the paddle I assume it is to change that ratio and allow the

arms/shoulders to do more work. >>

    If memory serves, this thread started with a fellow paddler asking for 
tips about rolling his Feathercraft K1.  While I agree with Rob about the 
best roll keeps the hands in the normal paddling position, those learning to 
roll often find it easier to extend the paddle until their form fully 
develops.  Certainly any roll is better than none, even an extended paddle 
roll is better than swimming.

Jed

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From: <HTERVORT_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rolling was Instability...
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 14:00:57 EST
In a message dated 2/1/00 10:02:35 AM Pacific Standard Time, 
rob_cookson_at_mindspring.com writes:

> While this may be true, what is the advantage of extending a western paddle
>  if you are not using it to get more support?  My point is that a sweep roll
>  should be 90% hips and 10% arms (no this is not meant to be an exact 
ratio).
>  When you extend the paddle I assume it is to change that ratio and allow 
the
>  arms/shoulders to do more work.

The extended paddle should allow you to slow the roll rate down without 
placing more stress on the joints.  This allows more time for the hips (CG 
shift) and the boat's buoyancy to act, especially when overcoming the extra 
inertia of a heavier, loaded boat or the resistance generated by wind and/or 
waves.  It also allows the kayaker more time to analyze whether his blade 
angle and other rolling factors are correct.

I agree that routinely rolling without hand-shift is the best way to go in 
most situations.  There is less possibility of paddle loss, less loss of 
time, and it is so fast that it often allows you to use the inertia of the 
capsize to help the roll.  

However, I think the extended roll (with traditional paddle or Euro-blade) is 
a good back-up when done correctly.  I also think that regular practice of 
extended-paddle rolls, trying to roll as smoothly and slowly as possible, is 
a good way to analyze and perfect roll technique.  I know that when I feel 
stress on my joints, it is either because I have rushed my roll -- trying to 
snap or muscle myself up, or blown the blade angle -- doing a high-angle 
sweeping brace which turns the boat, slows the sweep and generates a lot of 
drag.  On a bad day, I can blow a roll in either of these ways, regardless of 
how my hands are placed on the paddle and regardless of whether I'm using my 
Greenland stick or a Euro-blade.

>  The only bad roll is the one that leaves you with your head underwater.

. . . Or your arm in a sling.

Happy Paddling,
Harold

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From: Rob Cookson <rob_cookson_at_mindspring.com>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Rolling was Instability...
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 11:28:13 -0800
> The extended paddle should allow you to slow the roll rate down without
> placing more stress on the joints.  This allows more time for the
> hips (CG
> shift) and the boat's buoyancy to act, especially when overcoming
> the extra
> inertia of a heavier, loaded boat or the resistance generated by
> wind and/or
> waves.

I agree 100% that slowing down the roll is one of the best ways to analyze
and perfect technique; however there is no need to extend the paddle to do
this.



>It also allows the kayaker more time to analyze whether his blade
> angle and other rolling factors are correct.

My whole point when I replied to this post the first time is that with
enough practice you don't need more time to analyze your setup.  It becomes
totally instinctive, you can feel the blade angle and correct it throughout
the sweep with your hands in home position.

If you like the extended paddle roll for a backup I think that's great.

A mistake I see far too many people make is focusing on what to do when they
miss their first roll rather that making sure they never miss the first one.

Cheers

--
Rob Cookson

		http://www.3hats.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net
> [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net]On Behalf Of
> HTERVORT_at_aol.com
> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 11:01 AM
> To: rob_cookson_at_mindspring.com; paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net
> Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rolling was Instability...
>
>
> In a message dated 2/1/00 10:02:35 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> rob_cookson_at_mindspring.com writes:
>
> > While this may be true, what is the advantage of extending a
> western paddle
> >  if you are not using it to get more support?  My point is that
> a sweep roll
> >  should be 90% hips and 10% arms (no this is not meant to be an exact
> ratio).
> >  When you extend the paddle I assume it is to change that ratio
> and allow
> the
> >  arms/shoulders to do more work.
>
>
> I agree that routinely rolling without hand-shift is the best way
> to go in
> most situations.  There is less possibility of paddle loss, less loss of
> time, and it is so fast that it often allows you to use the
> inertia of the
> capsize to help the roll.
>
> However, I think the extended roll (with traditional paddle or
> Euro-blade) is
> a good back-up when done correctly.  I also think that regular
> practice of
> extended-paddle rolls, trying to roll as smoothly and slowly as
> possible, is
> a good way to analyze and perfect roll technique.  I know that
> when I feel
> stress on my joints, it is either because I have rushed my roll
> -- trying to
> snap or muscle myself up, or blown the blade angle -- doing a high-angle
> sweeping brace which turns the boat, slows the sweep and
> generates a lot of
> drag.  On a bad day, I can blow a roll in either of these ways,
> regardless of
> how my hands are placed on the paddle and regardless of whether
> I'm using my
> Greenland stick or a Euro-blade.
>
> >  The only bad roll is the one that leaves you with your head underwater.
>
> . . . Or your arm in a sling.
>
> Happy Paddling,
> Harold
>
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