Re: [Paddlewise] Nearly Fatal

Rob Cookson wrote:
> I think you are missing my point.  My point is that this was a hasty
> statement made with no firsthand knowledge and with information coming only
> from one side.  We do not know what was said between the dealer and the
> client and yet immediately the reaction is that the dealer is accused of
> gross negligence and it is suggested that they should be dealt with in some
> way.  I'm saying that it seems like pretty strong words given how little is
> really known about the situation.

You're right.  We don't know what was actually said between TheWetOne
and TheStore.  I am probably wrong in using a term like Gross
Negligence.  That's a legal term, and I don't want to suggest that
TheStore has a legal responsibility to promote safety; I do feel
strongly that TheStore has a moral responsibility (as do we all, as
paddlers) to promote safety.  I didn't mean to suggest that the dealer
should be dealt with--I am trying to say that the store (and all stores)
should be advocates for and sources of safety and information.

> How do you know that the dealer didn't try?  We have not heard from the
> salesperson at all.  Again you are leaping to conclusions without any real
> evidence.  I have seen this time and time again with rec boats where a
> salesperson says that the new paddler needs a pump and a paddlefloat etc etc
> and the customer says no thanks I'm just fishing near shore.  What do you
> propose?  Would you make all safety gear mandatory?  Should all kayaks be
> required by law to ship with sp****n's?  How about a vhf and a cell phone?
> Those are clearly valuable rescue tools should all dealers be required to
> sell those too?

That's such a sticky situation.  I'm opposed to legislation, but I
strongly believe that everyone should have sufficient safety gear.   I
have to admit that I don't have the right answers.
 
> > Ralph Diaz also wrote:
> > > I think we will have to put our heads together
> > > to figure out the most effective way to deal with this with this
> > > particular dealer.  But I don't want to rush into anything without
> > > thinking about it.
> >
> > Sounds like a pretty sane statement, doesn't sound like a "trial by
> > email" to me.
> 
> It may sound sane to you but it sounds horribly one sided to me.  Sounds
> like the dealer has been convicted and the judge is now deliberating
> sentencing.

Even if the dealer is simply told,"Hey, this guy could have died.  The
situation could have been prevented if he'd had positive flotation, a
paddlefloat, and a pump.  Oh yeah, and a sprayskirt."  Then, the dealer
tells the next potential buyer who has greenbacks burning a hole in
their pocket for a bright, shiny kayak, "One guy almost died because he
didn't have positive flotation, a paddlefloat, and a pump.  Oh yeah, and
a sprayskirt."

Which is another sticky situation.  The dealer doesn't want to lose the
sale (she's gotta put food on the table and pay her rent and mortgage)
but she also doesn't want to see someone get hurt.

> The dealer is not necessarily the first entity seen by the new paddler. How
> many times have I heard that so and so took me paddling and he says I don't
> need one of them there ______.  People are introduced to this sport in many
> different ways and many have some pretty strong notions by the time they get
> to the dealer.

So we should shoot the foolish people before they have the opportunity
to pass on bad information! </tongue in cheek>

> I agree that dealers can be very helpful in terms of education.  I believe
> that both the companies that I have worked for were extremely helpful in
> terms of educating new paddlers.  As I have said I am all for education, in
> fact I love teaching this sport, and I stress safety.  But and this is a big
> but.  The dealer is in no way responsible for the safety of those that buy
> product from them.  It is completely up to the individual buying equipment
> to learn how to use it safely and properly.  My whole beef this issue is
> that the terms gross negligence were brought out hastily and with only half
> a story that is at best third hand.

I think dealers, manufacturers, and fellow paddlers all have a
responsibility for the safety of new paddlers.  Again, not a _legal_
responsibility.  Sorry, gross negligence wasn't the right term.  

To use another sports analogy, SCUBA tanks are not filled unless a valid
cert card is presented.  Granted, it's through regulation, but if some
sort of informal self-regulation is not undertaken by the industry, then
formal regulation will come.


> Why then do we expect kayak retailers to impart all of the hazards of
> kayaking? We don't have this expectation of other retailers.
 
SCUBA diving is probably more dangerous than kayaking; backpacking
probably a bit less dangerous.  We're between a regulated sport and a
completely unregulated one; which extreme do we as a sport fall closer
to, and if registration is to be avoided, what should then be done?

> I agree knowledge=power but it is the responsibility of each individual
> to seek that knowledge.

So what is an Internet-impaired newbie kayaker to do for guidance if the
store can't provide information?  I don't see any potential
widely-available sources of safety knowledge for those who don't have
online access.  I have learned everything I know (safety-related)
indirectly or directly through the internet.  Without it, I wouldn't
have known about the existence of books like "Deep Trouble", or been
exposed to groups like PaddleWise.  As far as I'm concerned, a dealer is
the only possible source, aside from State- or Federally-mandated
regulation.
 
> As I'm sure you can tell the issue of personal responsibility is one that I
> feel very strongly about.  I think that we should all keep in mind that when
> you point a finger there are four pointing right back at you.

I'm fully aware of that.  As a newbie, I was guilty of breaking a lot of
safety practices (all 4 big fingers pointing right back at Shawn).  I
was lucky and didn't get caught.  I hate to see it happen to others.

All the best,
Shawn
-- 
Shawn W. Baker          0                                    46°53'N
© 1999            ____©/______                              114°06'W
~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^\  ,/      /~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^
baker_at_montana.com    0        http://www.missoulaconcrete.com/shawn/
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