G'Day, Thanks to everyone for their replies to my question, here is a very comprehensive reply from Colin Calder who is off the air at present and suggested I forward it on to Paddlewise. PeterO From: "Colin & Fiona" <tiree_at_supanet.com> Hi Peter In reply to your paddlewise post: >G'Day, > I'm in the middle of buying a second boat to further develop >kayaking skills. The one I have at present is a Klepper (which is a >lot of fun and would still be my first choice for a roughish sea). >But I'm looking to develop rolling and better bracing skills and >opting for a hardshell as the second boat. > Is it true that boats which have higher initial stability are >not necessarily as stable in rough seas? In rough water in a kayak it is paddler input which is important, ie what you do with your body and paddle, not just the hull shape. Flat bottomed or excessively beamy boats with so called 'high initial stability' are in my opinion a mare in rough water because the hull limits the amount of control you can exert with your body by edging and leaning. An analogy - Tricycles have more initial stability than Bicycles but would fall over a lot if used for mountainbiking. Probably less often mentioned but of concern nevertheless is the fact that the motion of beamier flat bottomed kayaks is considerably less comfortable in rough water - even ignoring the need-to-brace-to-avoid-capsize condition in a lumpy sea a beamy boat will throw you around much more and flat bottoms slam, both of which is tiring. >Also can anyone tell me of circumstances when a roll, or reenter and >roll is not the best method of self rescue in a hardshell? The best rescue is not needing one .. thus I don't consider a roll any more a rescue than other bracing strokes. If you can't roll though, you can't re-enter roll. Catch 22. If you can roll, then falling over isn't likely to be as much of a problem! Opinions on the list clearly differ, and for any individual/conditions/locations its a judgement call but my opinion is that if you aren't capable of rolling in whatever condtions you probably shouldn't be paddling that water solo. .... If you aren't solo then I think if you do swim self rescue is probably going to be slower and less reliable than an assisted rescue. Thus my hierarchy would be: 1. Don't fall over (good bracing skills) 2. If you do, roll up 3. If you can't roll, take a bow rescue from a switched-on companion (although I suspect that if you can't roll, you are unlikely to hang around too long for a bow rescue before swimming) 4. If you swim, make use of your friendly companions (it will stop them laughing for a few moments) to effect a speedy and safe rescue 5. No companions? hope you know how to roll. If for some exceptional reasons you swim, re-enter roll. FWIW, I don't know of anyone who would consider going paddling solo on the sea if they didn't have a reliable roll, and I also don't know anyone who carries a paddlefloat with the serious intention of using it for an outrigger style self rescue (I do have an inflatable paddlefloat, bought out of curiosity really after reading the paddlewise list, but it would be my absolute last choice as a method of self rescue). The idea of relying on a paddlefloat as your only method of effecting rescues is something that I have only learned about through the wavelength/paddlewise lists, and the concept I find utterly amazing! - they are not a widely accepted accessory in these parts. It might be instructive to add that I don't have any experience of paddling in warm protected water (my sea kayaking is predominately around the coasts of Scotland: cold tidal waters with essentially no protected water at all on the east coast), and I can understand that warm procected conditions the whole newbie-gets-a-kayak-goes-out-falls-over-on-flat water scenario is a real one and self rescues like the paddlefloat outrigger method may have some value there, but that scenario doesn't really arise here. Contrary to what you might believe if you read some of the American importers of Valley or NDK web sites, sea kayaking is a tiny tiny minority sport in the UK, no rental outfits, no guided holiday trips, kayaks are only available from a very few specialist retailers ... and as a result those who take to the sea in kayaks typically tend to be paddlers who have first acquired boating skills on rivers and who as a rule also tend to paddle only with club/groups until they have more extensive experience. > Various sources have suggested that for hardshells a shorter, >heavier (15ft & 26kg) boat with a V chine and relatively low initial >stability might be more suitable in roughish seas than lighter longer boats >with greater initial stability (17ft & 22kg). Not sure what you mean here ... have I got this right 'shorter and heavier'as opposed to 'longer and lighter'? >I think one of the arguments goes that it is easier with the V chine >to knee lift the boat horizontal when a wave is coming at a steep >angle. Have I got the concepts right? Hard chines on a V-bottom give a secure feel when the boat is edged or leaned but will feel tippy initially, a round bottom is the easiest to edge or lean but tippy at all angles of heal, a flat bottom the hardest to edge and lean (stiff). Designs tend to use different combinations and extremees of these features. Which is more stable? Depends what you mean by stability but the important point is that as conditions become rougher paddler input becomes more neccesary, not just the boat, and what some perceive as unstable boats facilitate more paddler control. Does that help? My advice is to paddle different boats and feel the differences, and even if your off-balance strokes and confidence isn't as good as it will be with experience, you will still be able to feel if you have the concepts right, but also consider that in rough water the deck shape and the cockpit are also important ... clearly if you have a boat that comes up to your armpits, your movement is going to be limited and so therefore is your bracing/rolling/stern rudders/boat control/etc etc, and while volume (freeboard) = windage which is not good, it also increases how the boat is knocked about left and right by the seas (which is also not good). Hope this helps. I'm temporarily on an email account on which I'm not subscribed to Paddlewise (which is bouncing out of my regular account to this one), and I suspect that the paddlewise server won't forward mail to the list unless its from a subscribed account, so if you want to forward this to the list please feel free to do so. Cheers Colin Calder 57°19'N 2°0'W *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 3/8/00 10:00:43 AM, rebyl_kayak_at_hotmail.com writes: <<Is it true that boats which have higher initial stability are not necessarily as stable in rough seas? Also can anyone tell me of circumstances when a roll, or reenter and roll is not the best method of self rescue in a hardshell? Various sources have suggested that for hardshells a shorter, heavier (15ft & 26kg) boat with a V chine and relatively low initial stability might be more suitable in roughish seas than lighter longer boats with greater initial stability (17ft & 22kg). I think one of the arguments goes that it is easier with the V chine to knee lift the boat horizontal when a wave is coming at a steep angle. Have I got the concepts right?>> Others on this list can provide better scientific arguments but I'll toss out my own anecdotal evidence. Initial stability which makes the boat feel steady on flat water also causes it to track the surface contours during excited seas. Which is to say that a boat that it will be tossed around by the same stability as the waves steepen. Boats with low initial stability have a much reduced righting moment and hence are little affected by the wave action. The V shape hull is more about tracking than stability, a rounded hull can be equally seaworthy but may track less strongly. Low initial stability boats are no harder to handle in rough water than they are in flat water. They are equally unstable in both conditions. High initial stability boats are at their best in flat water and become more difficult to handle as the conditions deteriorate. Shorter boats turn faster as a general rule and hence are easier to handle in rough water but there is a tradeoff in that the shorter length makes them more sensitive to wave action along the boats length and short can also mean slower to some extent. You are basically right about the knee lift versus steep waves as long as you substitute "lower initial stability" for "V chine". I've heard people argue the heavy versus light argument but for me it's more about sail area versus inertial. They argue that a heavier boat will be less affected by beam winds as the bow or stern rises out of the water. I believe that low windage is a better way to control this effect. I know of no condition where are roll is not the preferred self rescue but if for some reason it is not possible a reenter and roll would be my second choice followed by the assisted "T" rescue then lastly a paddlefloat reentry. Best of luck! Jed *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I have two boats notable for their tippyness;the Nordkapp and Falcon 16. Both perform admirably when conditions get rough. It's quite simple. Since little force is required to tip the boat when the seas are flat, little force is required to "tip" the boat vertical when the surface is inclined. cu *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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