OK, the results of my little survey are in. I don’t think I discovered anything really earth shattering, but as a great many of you expressed interest in what I was doing I thought it only fair that I share what I got. First let me say that the "reality check" was for myself and had nothing to do with this list. I appreciate the few minutes it took to contribute to my survey and would like to thank all of those who did. The problem I have been having has to do with putting a value on the Eskimo roll for touring/sea kayakers. While I agree that learning the roll usually makes learning bracing and other skills easier, and it can instill a greater sense of self confidence in the paddler (a good thing?), the fact remains that some very dramatic voyages have been undertaken by kayakers who could not roll, either because they lacked the skill, or because the boat they were using was not rollable. And what about canoes? Few canoeists can reliably roll their boats, yet some remarkable journeys have been made in canoes, not to mention they are regularly used for running whitewater. And what about sit-on-tops, folding boats and doubles? I just don’t understand why the roll is apparently of such great importance to beginning sea kayakers while it is virtually ignored by experienced canoeists and explorers? And so my survey -- 37 people responded. Of these, 49% had less then five years experience, 20% had between 5 and 10 years, and 31% had over 10. I think this is a pretty good spread for my purposes. As far as the years of experience at sea kayaking verses whitewater paddling, I was going on the premise that whitewater paddlers would put a greater emphasis on rolling then would the sea kayakers. This did not prove to be true according to the answers I received. 37% responded that they could not roll, 34% could roll close to 100% of the time, and the rest fell in between. In rating the value of the roll between 1 and 10 I came up with an average of 7. I’m not sure this is really representative of the group as half the answers were eight or above, but the few 1’s, 2’s, 3’s and 4’s really brought the average down. What was interesting is that 20% responded with something along the line of "it depends" rather then assign a number to it. I agree that the value of the roll depends on a number of individual factors. However, the "hard liners" I frequently butt heads with seem to view the sport, as well as the rest of the world, in terms of black and white. There isn’t any compromise – there’s right and wrong, this way and that, and they don’t want to be confused with the facts. So I was trying to force the issue by having people assign a single numerical value. I think one of the problems with this sport is that it can be so different depending on whose doing it and where. "Sea kayaking" seems to cover a pretty broad range of equipment and activities. Some people actually like the short fat "sport" boats, while the rest of us wouldn’t want to be caught dead in one (or perhaps that’s what we’re afraid of). Tooling around in a local lake or harbor, fishing, surfing, racing, camping, while all falling under the heading of "sea kayaking," all have different requirements for equipment and skills. Should we teach rolling as a beginner skill - should we always wear a pfd, a dry suit, a wet suit - what’s the best boat - can I paddle alone? It all depends. As far as where rolling falls as a skill to be learned, a whopping 69% placed it in the intermediate category. 14% said it was for beginners, and 17% called it advanced. I have always considered it to be an advanced skill myself, but as a result of this survey I just may have to rethink that. After all, we are living in a democratic society where the views of the majority make up the rules. If everyone decides that rolling is an intermediate kayaking skill, well, I guess I can live with that. I don’t necessarily agree with the majority, but I’ll try and go along with it anyway (see there. I actually do listen to you folks sometimes). What was interesting is that I tried to sort through the data by whitewater experience, as well as by years of kayaking experience, only to find that the results were pretty close to the same. This is encouraging in that it seems to indicate that the new paddlers are coming into this sport fairly well informed. Or, perhaps it’s just those on this list. So there you have it. Thanks again to all of you who participated. Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Scott, Thanks for taking the time to do this survey. I have a couple of comments: KiAyker_at_aol.com wrote: > The problem I have been having has to do with putting a value on the > Eskimo roll for touring/sea kayakers. While I agree that learning the roll > usually makes learning bracing and other skills easier, and it can instill a > greater sense of self confidence in the paddler (a good thing?), the fact > remains that some very dramatic voyages have been undertaken by kayakers who > could not roll, either because they lacked the skill, or because the boat > they were using was not rollable. SNIP I just don’t understand > why the roll is apparently of such great importance to beginning sea kayakers > while it is virtually ignored by experienced canoeists and explorers? A lot of the dramatic voyages have been done in folding kayaks and so to a degree this is true. Folding kayaks can be rolled but not as reliably as other kayaks. Depends on the model. In any folding kayak you need to be tightly positioned in the boat and few people bother to set up their foldables in that way except for performance ones like the Khatsalano. And with many a dramatic voyage involving double foldables, the task of rolling in an emergency is even more askewed. I have seen double foldables rolled but mainly as what I term a circus act, i.e. alongside a dock, carefully set up, lots of discussions, agreement on a countdown to coordinate the roll etc. I can't imagine two guys or gals in a double into their 20 mile on a particular day when they suddenly get knocked over having the instinct to perform a coordinated roll while fatigued and lost in their own thoughts when they suddenly hit the water. Same with a solo paddler in a double folding kayak, another standard for longish voyages. It would be a bitch to roll. But in singles like the Khats (or its sister Feathercraft, the K-1), rolling should be a self-required skill for any deep water voyager. Back to the dramatic voyages. Who doubts that Lone Madsen, who perished a year or two ago in Greenland in her hardshell, would not have had a different story to tell if she had known how to roll. I can't see how anyone would attempt what she did in such hairy waters without a very reliable roll and an impeccable reenter-and-roll as a backup. She simply could not do either and was not up to even a paddle float rescue from what I understand, albeit conditions would have taxed any paddle float rescue attempt. > answers I received. 37% responded that they could not roll, 34% could roll > close to 100% of the time, and the rest fell in between. Rolling has been an evolving phenomenon. Better teaching methods, better outfitting of boats and contagious enthusiasm have tended to up the figures of those who can roll reliably or have any rolling ability. Depends on the paddling circles you run in. In some paddling circles, a high portion of people roll and a high portion within that have a pretty reliable combat roll. In others, the percentages are quite low. Figures for PaddleWise can be somewhat askewed since this is an enthusiasts listserver and perhaps people are reluctant to admit they can't. But the figures you come up with are in keeping with what I have seen in some paddling circles. And it is improving. About 5 years ago I was at the Delmarva Paddlers Retreat which draws a more skilled crowd of paddlers and is a mecca now for Greenlandic paddling. A show of hands came up with about 20% saying they had a reliable or combat roll. I would suspect that now that same group would be up around a third as your survey comes up with, perhaps even higher. (But if you were to ask that question in my paddling crowd at the Boathouse, you would find that those with a combat roll would be, at best, in the low single digit percentage and a very low percentage could say they have done any rolling at all.) What has helped is better teaching styles, the spread of better instructor types (official, certified or not official nor certified), and the good ole Greenland paddle, which simplifies teaching rolling. When I first started paddling a dozen years ago and thought I would wind up in a hardshell, I took some serious stabs at learning to roll. My story is quite comical and I will share that in print one day...but I didn't learn. Groups too big in terms of people to instructor ratios, too brief sessions, and instructors who weren't as attuned to the needs of a wide range of people's needs and ways of learning. Then I discovered the real worth and reliability of single folding kayaks and just dropped the rolling quest. More recently I have returned to the rolling pursuit, mainly because I am a curious soul not for any real need in the type of boat I paddle (which won't really tip over easily and are quite easy to re-enter without props). Also Gabriel Romeu, who I met via PaddleWise, generously offered to make the logistics easy for me to get to some excellent instructors with good one-on-one oppportunities for long enough time slots. After some so-so attempts last year, it finally worked for me in January. The ingredients were a good instructor, Dan Smith of Philadelphia, the Greenland paddle in a Pawlata extended paddle grip, and the right method of instruction that clicked for me (Dan uses something like what Matt Broze says in his web page about going through the stages components particularly from finish position back down into the water). 15 minutes with Dan and I was rolling over and over again; sloppy, poor technique, but rolling nevertheless. So now I am rolling a hardshell in a pool with the normal progression of most people who have learned to roll (i.e. some good sessions followed by regression into piss poor sessions). I intend to followup over the coming months with a Euro paddle and a folding kayak such as the K-Light. I doubt I will ever get a combat roll as there isn't that much of an incentive for one in the boats I paddle. Moreover, I do think this should be a dry sport not a wet sport as some insist. I want to be on the surface and favor boats that will keep me there not ones that I have to coax to stay upright with an assortment of skills and then recover with a roll from wet if I do capsize. My final thought. If a person like me can learn to roll at the ripe age of 61 with little pressing urgency or incentive to do so, then certainly anyone can and should if paddling a hardshell under 23.55 inch beam (how's that for being arbitrary :-)). Whether you then can progress to a reliable roll in combat situations is another matter. But if you paddle the kind of boat that can more easily capsize and is harder to remount, then do go for it. Thanks for listening, ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Scott, I enjoyed reading your post. I have inserted a few comments and done much snipping. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net]On Behalf Of > KiAyker_at_aol.com <SNIP> > The problem I have been having has to do with putting a value on the > Eskimo roll for touring/sea kayakers. While I agree that > learning the roll > usually makes learning bracing and other skills easier, and it > can instill a > greater sense of self confidence in the paddler (a good thing?), the fact > remains that some very dramatic voyages have been undertaken by > kayakers who > could not roll, either because they lacked the skill, or because the boat > they were using was not rollable. And what about canoes? Few > canoeists can > reliably roll their boats, yet some remarkable journeys have been made in > canoes, not to mention they are regularly used for running > whitewater. And > what about sit-on-tops, folding boats and doubles? I just don’t > understand > why the roll is apparently of such great importance to beginning > sea kayakers > while it is virtually ignored by experienced canoeists and explorers? I think rolling is great. I taught a pool session last night we had 7 students none with any prior rolling instruction and in two hours four of them had rolled using a standard sweep roll and a euro paddle held in home position. No extended paddles. Two of the four were rolling very reliably and believe it or not one was rolling on both sides. Teaching methods have indeed changed. However, as much as I love rolling, as firmly as I believe it is the best rescue technique, I don't think people should be needing any rescue techniques if they are paddling within their limits. If I looked out at a crossing and said hmmm might have to roll a couple of times on this one, I would fire up the stove, put on another pot of coffee, and stay on the beach. The only exception I will add to this is paddling in true coastal environments where surf landings are a must. Even then I will try to pick my landings where the odds of capsize are minimized. This philosophy of course does not apply to play-boating such as fun in the surf zone. I consider this a sport separate from touring. I think the experienced people you mention above are relying on finely honed judgment, which in my opinion is worth more than a good hand roll. > However, the "hard liners" I frequently butt heads with seem to view the > sport, as well as the rest of the world, in terms of black and > white. There > isn’t any compromise – there’s right and wrong, this way and > that, and they > don’t want to be confused with the facts. Few things are black and white. So I was trying to > force the issue > by having people assign a single numerical value. > I think one of the problems with this sport is that it can be > so different > depending on whose doing it and where. "Sea kayaking" seems to > cover a pretty > broad range of equipment and activities. Some people actually > like the short > fat "sport" boats, while the rest of us wouldn't’t want to be > caught dead in > one (or perhaps that’s what we’re afraid of). Tooling around in a > local lake > or harbor, fishing, surfing, racing, camping, while all falling under the > heading of "sea kayaking," all have different requirements for > equipment and > skills. Should we teach rolling as a beginner skill - should we > always wear > a pfd, a dry suit, a wet suit - what’s the best boat - can I > paddle alone? Here we get to the meat of the issue in my mind. Kayaking is a very individual sport. People need enough safety gear and skills to make _them_ feel comfortable in the environment _they_ paddle in. Doesn't matter if I'm comfortable with boater x paddling without his pfd or not. If he feels he is within his abilities good for him. The fact that I may think he's a moron is not important. I know some kayakers that have been paddling a long long time that couldn't pull off a roll in a pool much less in combat and wouldn't wear a drysuit in 30 degree water but I'll bet that they continue to paddle without incident. In many ways they are safer than some highly skilled folks I know. > After > all, we are living in a democratic society where the views of the > majority > make up the rules. If everyone decides that rolling is an intermediate > kayaking skill, well, I guess I can live with that. I don’t > necessarily agree > with the majority, but I’ll try and go along with it anyway (see there. I > actually do listen to you folks sometimes). Oh I dunno Scott, the majority may make the rules but that doesn't make them right. Thanks again for an interesting post. Cheers, -- Rob Cookson 3 Hats Design INTERNET PRINT ILLUSTRATION 5201 15 Ave NW Suite 220 Seattle, WA 98107 206.851.8202 direct line 206.784.1641 main office phone 206.784.2231 main office fax mailto:rob_at_3hats.com http://www.3hats.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.4.0 : Thu Aug 21 2025 - 16:33:11 PDT