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From: Michael R Noyes <mnoyes_at_gsinet.net>
subject: [Paddlewise] The Great Skeg Vs. Rudder Debate.
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 13:54:02 -0400
One of the kayaks that I have been looking at lately comes with a skeg
standard, with an optional rudder.  Until now I have been pretty much
neutral about skegs, feeling that rudders were more versatile.  My
biggest objection to skegs (aimed primarily at my low volume Caribou)
was the amount of space that they take up in the rear compartment.  But
lately I have been re thinking the whole thing.  I still don't want one
in my Caribou, but perhaps in a kayak with more volume.....
    My thinking is going along these lines, please feel free to make any
additions, deletions, or corrections you see fit.  The rudder and skeg
both perform the same function, to balance the kayaks lateral drift in a
cross wind.  Or, to put it another way, to correct for weathercocking.
They go about this bu adding lateral resistance at the back of the
boat.  The skeg is balanced by providing more or less surface area as
needed, the rudder is balanced by changing its "angle of attack" in the
water.
    So I need to know the good and bad points of each system.  This is
my list so far;

Good:

Rudder
1) You can turn the boat without leaning, important with pets on deck.
2) "Intuitive" control, to go more left push more on left pedal.
3) Less prone to damage when striking objects than a skeg. (provided you
are moving forward, with lateral and rear impacts they are about the
same)
4) All parts are more accessible, making repairs easier if something
breaks.
5) Much better than a skeg for sailing.
6) In an emergency it can be used as a really big butter knife.

Skeg
1) Fewer moving parts to wear out.
2) Greatly increases lateral resistance with minimal increase in forward
resistance.
3) Foot braces are locked in position, no movement during bracing, etc.
4) Once it is set it stays there without further input from you, you
aren't constantly using your legs to keep the correct angle.
5) Clean deck, no hard, sharp edged gear.
6) I can retain my membership in the Evangelical Church of Rudderless
Paddlers (motto: Guidance is in your hands, not under your feet!")

Bad points.

Rudder:
1) Cables are a weak link and can break, leaving you rudderless.
Usually happens when you need it most.
2) Some people develop a dependency on the rudder for steering.  (Not
that I would ever do that! :-))
3) Soft feeling foot braces, not locked in place
4) When in use, especially at high rudder angles, your feet are in
different positions - affecting bracing and paddle strokes.
5) Greatly increases forward resistance, especially at high rudder
angles.
6) Requires constant muscle tension when in use. (not that your muscles
won't be tense at that time!)
7) Rudder on deck interferes with some rescue techniques.
8) I get kicked out of the Evangelical Church of Rudderless Paddlers.

Skeg
1) Adjusting rod can kink or break, locking the skeg in one position.
2) makes turning the boat without an aggressive lean much more
difficult.
3) More prone to damage than a rudder from forward impacts like running
up on a beach with the skeg still out.
4) Takes up room in the rear compartment, leaving less room for gear.
5) Skeg box and adjusting rod are in the rear compartment, making more
places for potential leaks.
6) You have to remember to pack a butter knife.

To me, after all this, the skeg seems to make more sense.  What do yo
think?

Mike

--
    Paddling along through fog so thick that only one's thoughts are
visible, your reverie is abruptly shattered by the ancient cry of a
great
blue heron as she lifts uncertainly from the brilliant blue of a
mussel-shell beach witnessed only by the brooding, wet spruce....your
passage home seems as much back through time as it does through space.
Mark H Hunt


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From: <Sidney_Stone_at_amsinc.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] The Great Skeg Vs. Rudder Debate.
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 14:57:17 -0400
Mike asked about skegs versus rudders:

A negative point on skegs is that sand and pebbles can wedge between the skeg
and the housing, locking the skeg in place.

I have two boats with skegs - a Skerry XL and a Valley Acquila.  Both pretty
high volume boats and I have not found the space taken by the skeg housing to be
troublesome (and I carry a lot of gear for day trips).  I also have not noticed
or experienced any leakage problems.

My next boat (hope the wife isn't listening) will not have a skeg.  I may have
used the skeg 2 or 3 times last year - and one of those times just for the hell
of it to see what if any difference it made.  I think with good, solid technique
the need for a rudder or skeg should be greatly reduced or eliminated.  So I
would ask, does the boat you are interested in come without a skeg or rudder?

By the way, the Skerry and the Aquila were purchased one year apart, the Skerry
being the younger.  They employ two difference skeg mechanism.  The Aquila is
more gravity activitated while the Skerry uses a metal cable push type
mechansim.  I prefer the Aquila mechanism, since the cable can krinkle more
easily.

If any one is interested in purchasing the Aquila, it's in good shape and for
sale.

best wishes,
sid


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From: Alex Ferguson <a.ferguson_at_chem.canterbury.ac.nz>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] The Great Skeg Vs. Rudder Debate.
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:13:10 +1200
>Bad points.
>
>Rudder:
>1) Cables are a weak link and can break, leaving you rudderless.
>Usually happens when you need it most.

Ok, a bit of annual maintenance or checking.

>3) Soft feeling foot braces, not locked in place

ONLY with badly designed systems.

>4) When in use, especially at high rudder angles, your feet are in
>different positions - affecting bracing and paddle strokes.

ONLY with bad design.

>6) Requires constant muscle tension when in use. (not that your muscles
>won't be tense at that time!)

NO.

>7) Rudder on deck interferes with some rescue techniques.

Not on any we use.

>8) I get kicked out of the Evangelical Church of Rudderless Paddlers.

Well you'd be one of the VERY few to be a member to start with.

Alex
.
.
Alex (Sandy) Ferguson
Chemistry Department
University of Canterbury
New Zealand
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From: Michael R Noyes <mnoyes_at_gsinet.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] The Great Skeg Vs. Rudder Debate.
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 11:44:06 -0400
Alex Ferguson wrote:

> >Bad points.
>
>
> >3) Soft feeling foot braces, not locked in place
>
> ONLY with badly designed systems.
>
> >4) When in use, especially at high rudder angles, your feet are in
> >different positions - affecting bracing and paddle strokes.
>
> ONLY with bad design.
>
>
>
> Alex

At this point I think I should mention the kayak I was looking at to cause the
question.  It is the Kajak Sport Avalon Viviane.  It comes with a skeg, but the
foot braces are the pivoting type already set up for a rudder.  In fact, the
through-hull tubes for the rudder cables and the rudder pivot hole are pre
installed in every kayak.  So if  I went with the rudder option I would be
adding it to a skegged boat, just a little redundant.
    But the "rudder pedals" on it are great!  In fact the owner of the shop
where I was looking at the Viviane said that she is going to put them on all of
her personal boats.

Mike

--
    Paddling along through fog so thick that only one's thoughts are
visible, your reverie is abruptly shattered by the ancient cry of a great
blue heron as she lifts uncertainly from the brilliant blue of a
mussel-shell beach witnessed only by the brooding, wet spruce....your
passage home seems as much back through time as it does through space.
Mark H Hunt


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From: Bob Denton <BDenton_at_aquagulf.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] The Great Skeg Vs. Rudder Debate.
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 18:21:51 -0400
You have it about right. Having owned both I'd never go back to a ruddered
boat. The slight loss of space is more then compeneated for by lighter
weight, reliability and portability.

Bob Denton
IT Director
Aqua-Gulf Transport
(Sent from a Palm Pilot)


[demime 0.92b removed an attachment of type application/ms-tnef]
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From: AlderCreek <acks_at_teleport.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] The Great Skeg Vs. Rudder Debate.
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 16:44:03 -0700
Mike,

I would definitely try out the Vivianne a bunch with the skeg, before committing to the rudder option. We have had the KajakSport boats at our shop since early fall and I have found the skeg works extremely well in dialing in the tracking needed with all three of the KajakSport boats.  IMHO a well designed skeg is the perfect way to have a easy to turn, maneuverable boat <skeg up> and a straight tracking boat <skeg down> and lots of options in between.


BTW, those hinged pedals *are* nice!

Steve Scherrer
Alder Creek Kayak and Canoe
250 NE Tomahawk Isle Dr
Portland, OR  97217

Phone: 503.285.0464
Fax: 503.285.0106
Web site: http://www.aldercreek.com
Email: acks_at_teleport.com
> 
> At this point I think I should mention the kayak I was looking at to cause the
> question.  It is the Kajak Sport Avalon Viviane.  It comes with a skeg, but the
> foot braces are the pivoting type already set up for a rudder.  In fact, the
> through-hull tubes for the rudder cables and the rudder pivot hole are pre
> installed in every kayak.  So if  I went with the rudder option I would be
> adding it to a skegged boat, just a little redundant.
>     But the "rudder pedals" on it are great!  In fact the owner of the shop
> where I was looking at the Viviane said that she is going to put them on all of
> her personal boats.
> 
> Mike
> 
> --
>     Paddling along through fog so thick that only one's thoughts are
> visible, your reverie is abruptly shattered by the ancient cry of a great
> blue heron as she lifts uncertainly from the brilliant blue of a
> mussel-shell beach witnessed only by the brooding, wet spruce....your
> passage home seems as much back through time as it does through space.
> Mark H Hunt
> 
> 
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> 
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From: Chuck Holst <cholst_at_bitstream.net>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] The Great Skeg Vs. Rudder Debate.
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 08:20:59 -0500
>>
Skeg
1) Adjusting rod can kink or break, locking the skeg in one position.
2) makes turning the boat without an aggressive lean much more
difficult.
3) More prone to damage than a rudder from forward impacts like running
up on a beach with the skeg still out.
4) Takes up room in the rear compartment, leaving less room for gear.
5) Skeg box and adjusting rod are in the rear compartment, making more
places for potential leaks.
6) You have to remember to pack a butter knife.
>>

1) Some kayaks use a bungie to help lower the skeg and a line to raise it, 
thus do not have the broken or kinked rod or cable problem. (incidentally, 
though I have heard of problems with cables, I have not heard of any with 
rods).
3) All retractable skegs I am familiar with retract on hitting the bottom 
if the kayak is moving forward. I once jammed mine, though, by pushing 
backwards off a beach with the skeg still down. It took about a minute to 
fix at the next stop.
4) The skeg box doesn't take up much space, but it divides it, so you have 
to pack differently.
5) My wife's skeg box leaked when the boat was new because of pinholes in 
the layup, not because of the skeg box design. Mine has never leaked; in 
fact, my after compartment is drier than my forward compartment.
x) Small stones can jam a skeg. This can be avoided in calm water by 
floating the kayak and checking the skeg before you get into it; otherwise, 
it helps to check it after launching and then have a partner clear it, if 
necessary.

Chuck Holst

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