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From: Seng, Dave <Dave_Seng_at_health.state.ak.us>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] the "back-channel"
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 15:12:58 -0800
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sailboat Restorations, Inc.
> [mailto:sailboatrestorations_at_worldnet.att.net]
> 
> Thanks very much to all who responded.  I received far more 
> responses off PW
> than on, and I appreciate all of them.  

  This comment is right in line with a phenomenon that I've noticed also -
that some posts receive _a lot_ more attention "off-line" than in the public
forum.  Maybe this isn't even worth discussing, but my understanding, which
can admittedly be flawed, is that PW was formed for the _sharing_ of
information, knowledge, stories, etc between paddlers from all the
paddlesports (that involve water).
  Why all the talk "under the covers"?  I sometimes post directly in
response to a question, but that's invariably because I goofed up and forgot
to reply to the list.  Hey - if you have something to share why not share it
with the whole group - if it's worth writing you might as well share it with
the whole group - you might be surprised at what someone else might learn
from your posting - even if you think it's fairly unimportant and innocuous.

 I'm not saying that direct postings are bad - just wondering "stuff" that
could benefit all is being missed.

  If I'm out-of-line and should really be hanging upside down in my kayak
'cause I'm "all wet" then so be it.  


Dave Seng
politically incorrect in 
Juneau, Alaska
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From: Rob Cookson <rob_cookson_at_mindspring.com>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] the "back-channel"
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 16:38:53 -0700
Hi Dave and All,

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net
> [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net]On Behalf Of Seng, Dave

<SNIP>


>   Why all the talk "under the covers"?  I sometimes post directly in
> response to a question, but that's invariably because I goofed up
> and forgot
> to reply to the list.  Hey - if you have something to share why
> not share it
> with the whole group - if it's worth writing you might as well
> share it with
> the whole group - you might be surprised at what someone else might learn
> from your posting - even if you think it's fairly unimportant and
> innocuous.

I agree with you and said something similar in an earlier post though it
hasn't shown up yet.  In this instance it may be because of the perceived
political nature of the question.  If that is the case it is unfortunate
that people are unwilling to share their views.

Cheers,

--
Rob Cookson
		3 Hats Design
		INTERNET  PRINT  ILLUSTRATION
		5201 15 Ave NW
		Suite 220
		Seattle, WA 98107
		206.851.8202 direct line
		206.784.1641 main office phone
		206.784.2231 main office fax
		mailto:rob_at_3hats.com
		http://www.3hats.com

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From: Dave Kruger <dkruger_at_pacifier.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] the "back-channel"
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 18:28:49 -0700
"Seng, Dave" wrote:

>   Why all the talk "under the covers"?  I sometimes post directly in
> response to a question, but that's invariably because I goofed up and forgot
> to reply to the list.  Hey - if you have something to share why not share it
> with the whole group - if it's worth writing you might as well share it with
> the whole group - you might be surprised at what someone else might learn
> from your posting - even if you think it's fairly unimportant and innocuous.
> 
>  I'm not saying that direct postings are bad - just wondering "stuff" that
> could benefit all is being missed.

I do some back channel stuff now and then, for four reasons:

1. My remarks are more pungent than I think apropos for sharing with a wide
audience.

2. The exchange may injure the ego of the person I am writing to, if he/she
realizes "everybody" is reading it.  Sort of a variant of 1, although I
sometimes use this to "lower the volume" in what seems a too-heated discourse.

3. To take a topic off PW which I think is edging off-topic for PW.

4. Sometimes I just feel like doing that and do not have a good reason.

-- 
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR
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From: <Bhansen97_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] the "back-channel"
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 08:17:39 EDT
In a message dated 4/18/00 7:45:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
rob_cookson_at_mindspring.com writes:

<<  Why all the talk "under the covers"? >>

I hadn't realized that this was a problem. But I see that it's good to bring 
it up.

For one thing, many of us have email clients which automatically Reply to the 
sender, not to the group. So if we're in a hurry and don't manually put in 
the group's address, "back-channel" stuff happens.

Also, I'll bet that there are some of us (like me) who feel pretty 
intimidated by the nationally-ranked experts on this list. We occasionally 
feel we have something to say to an individual, but think we might look 
presumptuous, knowing that there are a couple dozen others who know much more 
about any given topic than we do.

More important to me is that some things need to be said directly to the 
person who writes. They *are* personal, and don't concern the group. I'll 
keep on sending some private notes, as well as some notes to the group.

Bill Hansen
Ithaca NY
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From: Gabriel L Romeu <romeug_at_erols.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] the "back-channel"
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 09:41:29 -0400
Bhansen97_at_aol.com wrote:

> 
> Also, I'll bet that there are some of us (like me) who feel pretty
> intimidated by the nationally-ranked experts on this list. We occasionally
> feel we have something to say to an individual, but think we might look
> presumptuous, knowing that there are a couple dozen others who know much more
> about any given topic than we do.
> 

I feel that generally everybody on the group has had more experience
than I have had and it is a good opportunity of getting my opinions
critiqued.

Sometimes this can make me look pretty dumb, but no dumber than I
actually am...

-- 
:                         :
Gabriel L Romeu                                                      :
http://studiofurniture.com  furniture from the workshop               :
http://members.xoom.com/gabrielR  life as a tourist, daily
journal         :
http://users.aol.com/romeugp  paintings, photographs, etchings, objects
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From: Nick Von Robison <n.v.rob_at_deltanet.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] the "back-channel"
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 18:20:32 -0700
> that some posts receive _a lot_ more attention "off-line" than in the public
> forum.  Maybe this isn't even worth discussing, but my understanding, which
> can admittedly be flawed, is that PW was formed for the _sharing_ of
> information, knowledge, stories, etc between paddlers from all the
> paddlesports (that involve water).
>   Why all the talk "under the covers"?  I sometimes post directly in
> response to a question, but that's invariably because I goofed up and forgot
> to reply to the list.  Hey - if you have something to share why not share it
> with the whole group - if it's worth writing you might as well share it with
>

I hear you and second you Dave.  I started, and ran a web forum for musical
instrument makers a few years ago (www.mimf.com) and was totally bewilderded at
the number of people who would reply to peoples questions and discussions off
channel. The reason for the forum was to share, as this one is, and not take it
back channel.  A part of the reason for this was that I had a pretty formidable
rules of 'netiquette" which kept a lot of people from taking a 180 stance from
the posters stance.  Then again, some people just didn't get it and would post a
lot of  "me too" responses which just burned up bandwidth and served no
purpose.  PW's rules are not intimidating at all so I'm amazed that more people
don't respond more to the group, and that this is such a well behaved enclave.

I don't know to what extent flames and backbiting go on "back channel", but I
suspect it is mimimal.  This says a lot for the paddling community, Jackie's
vision, and this is one of the more civilized places to be on the web where no
one has to fear that one of the "big guns" are going to put you down for being a
neophyte or sticking your foot in your mouth.  I do it all the time, as we all
do, and I occasionally hit the wrong send button too...uh, vodka and e-mail
don't mix!  But, I've received a lot of back channel chat that would have better
served on the PW list instead.  It's bad form to forward something to the group
without having permission, so I've not done that, but a couple of times I've
responded to people that maybe the rest of you guys and gals would appreciate
the private reply to a post of mine.

Lurking is essential for feeling out the psyche of a list for a few months or
weeks, but this is such a wonderful community/list that I don't think anyone has
anything to fear from sharing.  I think it would be a wonderful service to this
list if more people would realize that at whatever level we're at now, that the
more advanced were there at some point in time too and love to share their
experiences without being overbearing or obsequiousness.

Nick (who agrees with Dave that lurkers and off channel people should come out
of the closet and share with us, at any level)





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From: Wes Boyd <boydwe_at_dmci.net>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] the "back-channel"
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 20:02:02
At 03:12 PM 4/18/00 -0800, Seng, Dave wrote:
>
>  Why all the talk "under the covers"?  I sometimes post directly in
>response to a question, but that's invariably because I goofed up and forgot
>to reply to the list.  Hey - if you have something to share why not share it
>with the whole group - if it's worth writing you might as well share it with
>the whole group - you might be surprised at what someone else might learn
>from your posting - even if you think it's fairly unimportant and innocuous.

There are times that back channel messages are appropriate. For example,
I've been discussing the possibility of a purchase of a new boat with
another Paddlewiser, who happens to be a dealer. Some of it is
purchase-specific, although the discussion grew out of a post I originally
made for all -- but Jackie would have red-flagged the discussion for
commericalism a long time ago, too. Besides, it's verging on nobody's
business but ours, anyway.

I will admit, sometimes back channel messages are screwups, though. I
inadvertently sent Ralph a back channel earlier today on the "gun" thread,
an off-the-wall reply to his off-the-wall post. When it didn't show up
later, I realized I'd hit "Reply" instead of "Reply to All". As it turned
out, it wasn't very constructive, and other people said the same thing in a
better way, so it's just as well it wasn't sent to everyone.

We manage to keep this place pretty personable, partly because we realize
that there are times that one-on-one is appropriate, or that some
discussions just don't need to involve everybody -- they just cause
clutter. But yes, there are times that it would be interesting to everybody
if some of the back channel stuff was out in the open. But it's still
sender's choice, after all -- with the caveat that replying in the open
forum to a private message is considered bad form.

-- Wes

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