RE: [Paddlewise] the "bombproof" roll

 I wrote:
(I thought Rob Cookson did a good job of elaborating on float rolls,
 earlier.)

Rob wrote:
Don't remember doing that (at least recently) so you may be giving me credit
for someone else's fine work.

Sorry about that, Rob has said so much lately that I'm in strong agreement
with I thought it must be him. I'm on the digest so it gets tedious trying
to find things again to quote or check facts. And I don't want to answer as
I read because often someone else does a fine job of giving the exact answer
I wanted to write and saves me the effort.

Searching back in the digests I think what I was probably remembering was
Doug Lloyd writing:

>It is good to realize, however (opinion time!),
> that a roll to me is not a sign of failure. Coming out of your boat is.
> Once you have left the security of your vessel, you have failed
> miserably. You are a failure in my book if you do that. I've been a
> failure in my book a couple of times! Anything that keeps you in your
> cockpit after a partial or fully consummated capsize is fine, be it a
> reliable roll, sculling-to-upright, ready-to-use paddle float on the
> rear deck, hand-roll, throwing stick roll, or a "Back Up" Co2 rescue
> device, whatever.

Sorry Doug (and the others I misinformed)

Rob wrote:

> My order of preference for rescues is as follows.
>
> Roll
>
> If Swimming and there is no reason why another roll attempt would fail
> re-enter and roll.
>
> The reason I choose this is that I have better rolling skills
> than re-entry
> skills.
>
> If that fails paddle float rescue.
>
> I have a lot of faith in my roll.  I practice it often and have used it
> under fire in white water and while surfing.  It has been ultra
> reliable, I
> have only had a handful of swims in the last decaden and those
> have all been
> out of white water boats.
>
> If I was as good with a paddlefloat rescue as Matt is, my order of
> preference might change.  We tend to be good at what we practice
> and for me
> that has been the roll.
>
>
> Understand that for me this is all hypothetical.  I've never accidentally
> capsized my sea kayak while touring.  I have of course capsized
> surfing, and
> once I got munched by an big seamy eddy line in Deception pass
> (roll worked
> just fine).  But I expect that sort of thing while screwing around.
>

But the question is would a re-enter and roll have worked just fine. Coming
from a whitewater background and after having developed pretty good bracing
skills, I rarely have had to roll even when playing around in pretty rough
water, storms and surf (as long as the breakers weren't too big). Therefore
I'm speaking theoretically here as well. I suggest anyone wanting to compare
the advantages of re-enter and roll vs. the outrigger paddlefloat rescue try
them both enough to get the bugs out and then try them in some rough water.
But make sure you don't stop after just getting back in the kayak and
upright. When it is for real it is very likely you will need to pump out the
kayak to continue on with a reasonable chance that you will not recapsize
again shortly. The fixed outrigger rescue makes this boat emptying stage so
much easier.

After a reenter and roll you are not in the same "boat" as you are after
rolling. The cockpit is flooded and most likely you also weren't able to
reattach the spraydeck upside down (if you even tried) before running low on
oxygen and rolling up. Reattaching the spraydeck and pumping using a hand
pump are so much easier in a stabilized kayak where you can use both hands
and don't have to keep bracing with the paddle. A foot pump or electric pump
will help the re-entry and roller some here, but my own experience with foot
pumps has been the introduction of leg cramps into the rescue equation. I
have seen several electric pumps that failed and would at least want to have
a hand pump (and the ability to also stabilize the boat for pumping) as a
back up to an electric pump.
If you do this comparison. Time both methods to the point where your pump is
 sucking more air than water and let us all know the results.

Matt Broze
http://www.marinerkayaks.com







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