----- Original Message ----- To: Paddlewise <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net>; Matt Broze <mkayaks_at_oz.net> Subject: Paul Caffyn and rudders (long) > Matt wrote: > >They change their kayak > >in some way and see what those changes did to how their kayak handled for > >them with their own skills and ability level. Or they get another kayak and > >compare it to their first one and then decide that it was the differences > >they noticed that made the differences in handling they observe. .....This > becomes much > >like the six blind men describing the elephant. The reality is that the > >addition of a rudder or skeg may create different results depending a lot > on > >the kayak that was started with. > Gerals responded: > Not everyone is a marine engineer. Those of us intensely interested in > boats try to find reasons why particular boats feel the way they do. Matt, > you should not be so negative about this. For example, I tested the CD > Caribou (no skeg) once in very windy conditions and thought it awful, even > dangerous. I have paddled my Express in similar conditions numerous time > and it was completely controllable. I chatted with a very experienced > Mariner fan and instructor who claimed it was the stern of the Caribou that > was poorly designed and offered the Express as an example of proper stern > design. Yet there are many good paddlers who are wildly enthusiastic about > the Caribou and claim no problem whatever with directional control. This is > not blind men, but different men trying to make sense of the ineffable. > Lighten up on them. I just wish folks would grope around the elephant a little more before making sweeping generalizations about it as though it is proven fact. You may find that with a little more paddling time You would like the Caribou to but you have skill with a rudder and an Express and may have to learn some new skills to control a Caribou. I have never tried surfing the Caribou but liked it a lot (except the strong weatherhelm--which I suspect is why it is available with a drop skeg now--that is what I thought it needed--and the drop skeg should improve following sea performance too if used to best effect by balancing the need for some manueverability with keeping the stern from skidding sideways down the wave). I'm surprised by your experience with the Caribou in following seas. Usually hard chine boats that respond well to a lean turn like the Caribou does do well there. Maybe its that old proactive/reactive preference of yours, or maybe I should try it out for myself in following seas (or at least a steep boatwake) instead of believing the ravings and first impressions of blind men. > >Gerald Foodman asked Doug Lloyd: > > > >> >>>I would be most interested in your impressions of the Mariner II, > >> in big > >> water, especially compared to your own Nordkapp.>>> > > > Matt replied: > >Doug Lloyd responded with a bunch of surmises based on what he has seen or > >heard from others who owned different model Mariner kayaks than the one > >Gerald asked about. From Doug's answer it seems clear that he hasn't > paddled > >even the Mariners he talks about at all much less in rough conditions. He > >describes only what he has heard and seen from others and compares them > with > >himself in his kayak (when they have different sizes strengths and skills > as > >well as different boats) rather than comparing what he has himself > >experienced using the two different boats in the same conditions (and > >answering the question asked). But the kayaks he tells us about (others > >experiences in rather than his own) aren't even the boat he is asked about. > > Matt, again, lighten up. I, for one, am extremely interested in Doug's > surmises. I am also extremely interested in your responses. The dialog > between you and he about boats, safety and methods is, IMHO, the most > interesting exchange on paddlewise. I want to know what Doug has heard, > what he surmises. I have, as you know, test paddled the Mariner II in the > tidal rapids of Desception Pass and thought it too was terrific. Hearing > Doug's thoughts is useful and interesting to me. Don't discourage him. I forgot you had paddled the Mariner II. Essentially Doug is repeating what he interpreted one blind man to have said. I'm surprised that you think there is much to learn about the Elephant from heresay once removed from a blind man. > > Matt wrote: > >Doug never gets close enough to having this problem because he hasn't even > >used the boats he is pontificating on much less the one that he was > >questioned on. I certainly don't doubt Doug is a very skilled paddler as is > >Paul Caffyn. Both have paddled many times as far as I have in the last 25 > >years. What they lack, however, is experience in a wide variety of kayaks. > Gerald wrote: > Now, I have never paddled a Nordkapp. But I have a clear impression that I > would find it unseaworthy even though certain supermen do incredible voyages > in them. Why. Too tippy. Too hard to turn. I don't find the Mariner II > or my Solstice GTS tippy at all. But I do find boats like the Arluk II, > Arluk 1.9, even Arluk III, too tippy in bumpy water and following seas. The > Mariner II and GTS are uncannily stable and forgiving in these conditions. > I don't think I would be pontificating if I recommended to a friend, of > equal ability to me, that he skip the Nordkapp, even though I never paddled > it. I have heard and read enough about it. Since you paddled the Mariner II and have read what others have written about the Nordkapp why did you need to ask the question of Doug that started this thread. I'd suggest you paddle several different versions of the Nordkapp (not all are super stiff tracking only the HM version) before being so sure of what you just said and then assuming that your friend would see things the same as you and would wouldn't like it. To me this sounds like "I heard about the elephant from the blind man and suggest that you don't go anywhere near it, it might fall over on you. I know this because I heard it is tippy and very like a wall". <SNIP Gerald made of me suggesting maybe Doug should write ad copy with his "demon like ferocity"> > Matt wrote: > >Get real Doug, the rudder helps you stay faced down the wave when the kayak > >wants to do otherwise. It does this at some added drag cost but if you can > >use it to stay pointed straight down the wave and catch it rather than lose > >the gravity powered ride by broaching you can grab the tail of that tiger > >and really get to moving at wave speed. If your kayak didn't broach so > >readily and you also didn't have to drag the rudder around to keep a broach > >from happening then you could catch even faster waves because you wouldn't > >have the added drag and weight of the rudder slowing your acceleration and > >top speed. > > > > I think you way overemphasize the added drag of a rudder. There is no > question that I can paddle down weather much faster with a rudder on my > Solstice GTS, which has very little tendency to broach than I can with the G > TS without the rudder or with my Mariner Express. The energy I save from > doing zero corrective sweeps far outweighs any rudder drag. Perhaps if I > practiced more with the Express things would be different. (The Express, > however, is much more fun.) I am still considering buying a II in the > expectation that in these down weather conditions it will require less > maneuvering than the Express. The reason I did not like the Coaster was in > just these following sea conditions. I prefer having to be less quickly > proactive with corrective strokes and would rather cruise down the waves. > Jerry First you are misinterpreting what I wrote. Rudder drag while it is present while surfing (and much more so if you angle it to correct your course) is of less consequence once a steep enough wave is caught and you are surfing. I said the drag and weight of the rudder will slow accelleration. This means you won't be able to catch quite as fast a wave as you could if you were skilled at doing this without the extra drag and weight of the rudder. I recall a letter that you wrote to AnorAK (or was it another East Coast publication) where you compared your experiences with the GTS and the Express. There you mentioned the easier control in following seas with the rudder but also mentioned that John Lull has no trouble keeping an Express on course in following seas. John (who did the "Surf Kayaking Fundamentals" and "Surfing Ocean Rock Gardens, a Tsunami Rangers Guide" videos) has paddled a Coaster for the last 12 years or more. I guess you have a different skill level or philosophy than he. I suspect John likes to be proactive. This may lose me a sale, but, I doubt you will find a huge difference between the Mariner II and the Express in a following sea unless you are carrying a gear load (I'm not sure if you are interested in its handling when the kayak is empty or when gear laden or both). The mariner II is better with a gear load than the Express in following seas. The Mariner Max requires less proactiveness than either the Express or the Mariner II in a following sea--empty or loaded down. By proactiveness I mean leaning the kayak to turn back down the wave as soon as a broach begins rather than waiting for the rudder to come back down into the water (if the wave is steep and using it to turn back down the wave by angling it sideways and dragging the stern back up the wave. Added drag, yes, but it's not hurting you if the wave isn't so fast that you risk losing it by braking with the rudder (or a stern rudder stroke). I use boat lean and a stern draw component rather than a sweep stroke to control direction when surfing. . Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt Broze wrote: > I just wish folks would grope around the elephant a little more before > making sweeping generalizations about it as though it is proven fact. You > may find that with a little more paddling time You would like the Caribou > too but you have skill with a rudder and an Express and may have to learn > some new skills to control a Caribou. I certainly agree. The Caribou is very responsive, and very easy to control (if you have the right skill set). The Caribou is a fun boat for proactive paddlers, or at least for this proactive paddler. I replace boats and gear frequently, but I have stuck with my Caribou for the past 4 years, which is a record for me (other than an old solo canoe that I have had for years and still use for wilderness river trips). Matt also wrote: > I have never tried surfing the Caribou but > liked it a lot (except the strong weatherhelm--which I suspect is why it is > available with a drop skeg now--that is what I thought it needed--and the > drop skeg should improve following sea performance too if used to best > effect by balancing the need for some manueverability with keeping the stern > from skidding sideways down the wave). I'm surprised by your experience with > the Caribou in following seas. Usually hard chine boats that respond well to > a lean turn like the Caribou does do well there. Maybe its that old > proactive/reactive preference of yours, or maybe I should try it out for > myself in following seas (or at least a steep boatwake) instead of believing > the ravings and first impressions of blind men. One of the things I like best about the Caribou is its performance in following seas. My favorite type of padddling is to surf wind waves. The Caribou is very well suited to this--it accelerates quickly and is very easy to control on the wave. I also like its performance in stern quartering seas, where it has less of a tendency to yaw (or "wobble") than most kayaks. As for its tendency to weatherhelm, I have found a couple of ways to minimize this (other than with a drop-down skeg) one of which I discovered by accident. First, as has been frequently mentioned, shifting some weight to the stern makes a big difference. (This works better with Caribou than with most kayaks for some reason.) I no longer shift much weight to the stern, however, as the result of my "accidental" discovery. I became concerned that I was getting too much abrasion along the stern keel (from dragging the boat, and from launchings) and so about a year ago I added a sacrificial strip of Marine-Tex (fiber-impregnated epoxy paste) along the last several feet of the keel. I did not expect any noticable effect on handling, because it is not very deep (it starts very thin, tapers to a maximum depth of perhaps 1/2 inch, and then tapers smoothly back to the original keel). I was surprised (and at first dismayed) by the effect that such a small keel modification had on the handling. I was going to grind most of it off, but I decided to try shifting some weight forward (or rather, shifting less weight to the stern than had become my custom), and this worked to restore the boat's handling (making it relatively easy once again to turn into a strong wind). The strip has started to wear away, but I think I may refurbish it. Of course a drop-down skeg adds greater flexibility, but I like to avoid mechanical devices on kayaks due to the risk of failure. The only adjustable mechanism whose robustness I trust is the sliding seat. I am surprised that more manufacturers do not incorporate sliding seats into their designs. Dan Hagen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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