> -----Original Message----- > From: Dan Hagen [mailto:dan_at_hagen.net] snip > The only adjustable mechanism whose > robustness I trust > is the sliding seat. I am surprised that more manufacturers do not > incorporate sliding seats into their designs. > This sliding seat idea has always sounded interesting to me, but, never having seen one, I have a little trouble picturing how they work in conjunction with a spray skirt - or is the total travel distance fore/aft small enough that the "normal" amount of slack in a "normal" skirt can adjust to the different seat placements? Dave Seng Juneau, Alaska *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
The sprayskirt I got with my Express has enough play in it to slide all the way back for entry-exit and to bury the stern when paddling. Sliding about 4-6" forward is balanced for normal paddling. The only time I go further forward is to release the stern to turn into high winds. I can slide a few inches further forward and have run out of play in the skirt. It works fine so far. Matt told me they once had a spray skirt made with a great deal of play but folks didn't like paddling with a puddle in the slack. I'm still considering having one made with more play as I'm not fussy about a quart of water here or there. By the time I'm ready to get it made, I'll probably decide I don't need it. I suspect the boat would handle fine with the hung or foam seat that are also available. But I gotta tell you, sliding the seat all the way back makes getting in and out soooooo easy. I've noticed that every time I go out I find it necessary to get into and out of the boat at least once. I can't testify, with my limited experience, that it helps me surf huge waves, negotiate treacherous rock gardens or complete lengthy crossings. It does keep me from looking stooopid in front of the ol' geezers that inhabit the docks. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Seng, Dave" <Dave_Seng_at_health.state.ak.us> To: "Paddlewise" <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Sent: Monday, May 15, 2000 9:08 AM Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Paul Caffyn and rudders (long) > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Dan Hagen [mailto:dan_at_hagen.net] > > snip > > > The only adjustable mechanism whose > > robustness I trust > > is the sliding seat. I am surprised that more manufacturers do not > > incorporate sliding seats into their designs. > > > This sliding seat idea has always sounded interesting to me, but, never > having seen one, I have a little trouble picturing how they work in > conjunction with a spray skirt - or is the total travel distance fore/aft > small enough that the "normal" amount of slack in a "normal" skirt can > adjust to the different seat placements? > > Dave Seng > Juneau, Alaska *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
The sliding seat is a great idea. I've paddled one of Matt's boats with the sliding seat. The problem is, sand and grit is ever present to stop all the sliding. Robert > From: "Seng, Dave" <Dave_Seng_at_health.state.ak.us> > Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 08:08:14 -0800 > To: Paddlewise <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net> > Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Paul Caffyn and rudders (long) > >> > This sliding seat idea has always sounded interesting to me, but, never > having seen one, I have a little trouble picturing how they work in > conjunction with a spray skirt - or is the total travel distance fore/aft > small enough that the "normal" amount of slack in a "normal" skirt can > adjust to the different seat placements? > > Dave Seng *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I haven't found that to be a problem with my Express. The mechanism is pretty simple and California sand doesn't seem to interfere with it. Operation may be the problem. Taking little hops and scoots to bump the seat for and aft works for me. Unloading the weight on the seat is the key. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert C. Cline" <rccline_at_swbell.net> To: <PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Cc: "Seng, Dave" <Dave_Seng_at_health.state.ak.us> Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2000 8:11 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] sliding seats > The sliding seat is a great idea. I've paddled one of Matt's boats with the > sliding seat. The problem is, sand and grit is ever present to stop all the > sliding. > > Robert *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Bob: That must have been it. I can only remember sitting in the seat trying to scoot it forward to no avail... taking scoots as one would on a seal launch... "Operator error." Thanks for clearing this up. Robert > From: BaysideBob <vaughan_at_jps.net> > > > I haven't found that to be a problem with my Express. > The mechanism is pretty simple and California sand > doesn't seem to interfere with it. Operation may be > the problem. Taking little hops and scoots > to bump the seat for and aft works for me. > > Unloading the weight on the seat is the key. > > Bob *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Given that: - A 17"-wide hull is faster than one that's 20" - 20" is reasonable to balance, 17" is quite difficult, perhaps at the limit of what's possible Why not have a hull that's only, say 15" wide at the water line, but flares sufficiently around the cockpit to provide a sponson effect if/when leaned? That way, if/when the paddler could balance they'd be able to go faster, but when they were off balance the secondary stability would keep them upright. Clearly this doesn't work because if it did racing skis would be using it by now. But why doesn't it work? ----------------------- Pete Cresswell *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Peter wrote: > > Why not have a hull that's only, say 15" wide at the water line, but flares > sufficiently around the cockpit to provide a sponson effect if/when leaned? > > That way, if/when the paddler could balance they'd be able to go faster, but > when they were off balance the secondary stability would keep them upright. > > > Clearly this doesn't work because if it did racing skis would be using it by > now. If your butt isn't 15" wide then it gets rather hard to sit in the boat as low as you need for stability. The size of a paddler's butt limits the beam of sprint kayaks which, incidentally flare out to the maximum beam regulated by the rules. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Web site address http://home.ican.net/~735769. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Sun, 18 Jun 2000, (Pete Cresswell) wrote: > - 20" is reasonable to balance, 17" is quite difficult, perhaps at the limit of > what's possible I don't know about that. I normally paddle a 17" beam surf ski and was fairly comfortable on a 15" beam 13.5" waterline surf ski (a Mako) a couple of weeks ago. Comfortable enough to be considering the Mako as my next boat. I'm comfortable enough on my current surf ski to be able to sit in it, with my feet in the footwells, without a having a paddle for bracing. > Why not have a hull that's only, say 15" wide at the water line, but flares > sufficiently around the cockpit to provide a sponson effect if/when leaned? Have you tried the Current Design speedster? That boat is tippy when upright and pretty stable, when you lay it on it's side. I can lean it enough to get a knee wet, with my feet in the footwells, without needing to brace. kirk *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Robert C. Cline wrote: >>The sliding seat is a great idea. I've paddled one of Matt's boats with the sliding seat. The problem is, sand and grit is ever present to stop all the sliding. << Robert, please let me know how the sand and grit stopped the sliding seat you were using. I suspect you hadn't learned how to slide it yet during your tryout. I have been paddling sliding seat kayaks for more years than I'd like to admit. Sometimes when playing in the surf a steep shore break can dump lots of sand and grit in the cockpit once I've popped my spraydeck to exit but in all these years I have never not been able to slide the seat because of sand or grit even once. I have also never had anyone else tell me it has happened to them either until just now. Could you please elaborate, in my experience sand kind of acts like a bunch of ball bearings to make the seat slide easier. Which model and whose kayak did you try? Usually I hear this claim of sand jamming the seat from potential customers who heard it from a competitor who has never tried it and is just speculating (or who is throwing out a red herring). The seat tracks are self cleaning. I challenge anyone to find any natural grit from sand to gravel size that will stop an experienced user from being able to slide the seat when they want to (if it is not piled so deep in the cockpit so as to stop the seat from sliding due to the deep sand or gravel's weight alone). Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt: The sliding seat is an excellent innovation. What a great way to change the balance of the boat as you need to. I believe it was a Mariner II. You might even know the boat, it was the one George Gronseth uses. I used this boat in his Highwinds training course in the Colubia River Gorge, and again in his Deception Pass tidal currents training. I was scooting and struggling with it and only managed to get the seat to shift slightly. I was also paddling a Capella in that course and since I wasn't spending all day with it, gave up on it. I looked down at the slide wondering why it was all jammed up, but abandoned the thought of working with it since there was much else to be doing... like keeping up with the class. That's the sum of my experience. George obviously hadn't a problem with it, or he would have either called you or fixed it himeslf. Your presumption of operator error could indeed be correct. Robert > From: Matt Broze <mkayaks_at_oz.net> > Organization: Mariner Kayaks > Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 03:48:25 -0700 > To: Paddlewise <PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net> > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] sliding seats > > Robert, please let me know how the sand and grit stopped the sliding seat > you were using. I suspect you hadn't learned how to slide it yet during your > tryout. I have been paddling sliding seat kayaks for more years than I'd > like to admit. Sometimes when playing in the surf a steep shore break can > dump lots of sand and grit in the cockpit once I've popped my spraydeck to > exit but in all these years I have never not been able to slide the seat > because of sand or grit even once. I have also never had anyone else tell me > it has happened to them either until just now. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
George has modified the seat in his Mariner II to suit himself (and his very out of the ordinary behind) to such an extent that it really isn't the same seat anymore. I tried to call him to see if he hasn't also blocked it in place on purpose, as I suspect he has, but I only got his voice-mail. I'll try to get back to you with what he tells me later. I would assume that if it was still free to slide that he would have told you how to move it to the trim position at least. I suspect that it is easier for him to just block it in at the trim position and not have to teach one customer in a whole group how to work their particular seat. He cut the backrest down so far that getting into it already in the trim position should not be at all difficult. The sliding seat usually requires some instruction so the paddler understands just what to do to get it to move. It sometimes takes a minute or two to teach someone how to get it to move at all the first time. Since you were given no instruction at all on how to move it it would be quite understandable that even if it wasn't blocked you might not figure it out on your own. It is a little like the Eskimo roll in that you have to coordinate several movements and push in the right way on the pedals or the seat to get it to move. Someone who has learned the tricks and practiced a little can jump it over a foot in one motion but most first tries get nowhere. After a little instruction most folks can hop it an inch or two with each "jump". Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Robert C. Cline [mailto:rccline_at_swbell.net] > Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2000 6:35 AM > To: PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] sliding seats > > > Matt: The sliding seat is an excellent innovation. What a great way to > change the balance of the boat as you need to. > > I believe it was a Mariner II. You might even know the boat, it > was the one > George Gronseth uses. I used this boat in his Highwinds training > course in > the Colubia River Gorge, and again in his Deception Pass tidal currents > training. > > I was scooting and struggling with it and only managed to get the seat to > shift slightly. I was also paddling a Capella in that course and since I > wasn't spending all day with it, gave up on it. I looked down at > the slide > wondering why it was all jammed up, but abandoned the thought of working > with it since there was much else to be doing... like keeping up with the > class. > > That's the sum of my experience. George obviously hadn't a > problem with it, > or he would have either called you or fixed it himeslf. Your > presumption of > operator error could indeed be correct. > > Robert > > > From: Matt Broze <mkayaks_at_oz.net> > > Organization: Mariner Kayaks > > Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 03:48:25 -0700 > > To: Paddlewise <PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net> > > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] sliding seats > > > > Robert, please let me know how the sand and grit stopped the > sliding seat > > you were using. I suspect you hadn't learned how to slide it > yet during your > > tryout. I have been paddling sliding seat kayaks for more years than I'd > > like to admit. Sometimes when playing in the surf a steep shore > break can > > dump lots of sand and grit in the cockpit once I've popped my > spraydeck to > > exit but in all these years I have never not been able to slide the seat > > because of sand or grit even once. I have also never had anyone > else tell me > > it has happened to them either until just now. > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt Broze wrote: > > George has modified the seat in his Mariner II to suit himself (and his very > out of the ordinary behind) to such an extent that it really isn't the same > seat anymore. I tried to call him to see if he hasn't also blocked it in > place on purpose, as I suspect he has, but I only got his voice-mail. I'll > try to get back to you with what he tells me later. I would assume that if > it was still free to slide that he would have told you how to move it to the > trim position at least. I suspect that it is easier for him to just block it > in at the trim position and not have to teach one customer in a whole group > how to work their particular seat. He cut the backrest down so far that > getting into it already in the trim position should not be at all difficult. > The sliding seat usually requires some instruction so the paddler > understands just what to do to get it to move. It sometimes takes a minute > or two to teach someone how to get it to move at all the first time. Since > you were given no instruction at all on how to move it it would be quite > understandable that even if it wasn't blocked you might not figure it out on > your own. It is a little like the Eskimo roll in that you have to coordinate > several movements and push in the right way on the pedals or the seat to get > it to move. Someone who has learned the tricks and practiced a little can > jump it over a foot in one motion but most first tries get nowhere. After a > little instruction most folks can hop it an inch or two with each "jump". > > Matt Broze > http://www.marinerkayaks.com > And I thought folding kayaks were the only boats that needed complex instructions and a knack to set up! :-) ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
RE/ >He cut the backrest down so far that >getting into it already in the trim position should not be at all difficult. When I had my Mariner Express, I sawed off the top of the backrest so it would slide under the cockpit coaming. Two reasons: 1) I felt like I was flirting with a minor back injury if/when I had to lean way back with it up so high. 2) I have extremely long legs and those couple of extra inches of backward movement allowed me to do a cowboy mount if/when I wanted. I'd routinely slide the seat quite far forward when paddling a following swell and I never, ever had any trouble sliding it back - with sand in the boat or otherwise......Only problem I ever had on capsizing was staying *in* the boat... I found the ability to shift the center of gravity to be invaluable. ----------------------- Pete Cresswell *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dunno what USLA stands for...(US Lifeguard Association???)... But anyhow, this is supposedly the magic word for the specifications governing what's legal in lifeguard surf ski racing. Anybody know where to download a document? ----------------------- Pete Cresswell *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Pete wrote, "Dunno what USLA stands for...(US Lifeguard Association???)... But anyhow, this is supposedly the magic word for the specifications governingwhat's legal in lifeguard surf ski racing. Anybody know where to download a document?" It's the Unites States Lifesaving Association, and they publish a Manual of Open Water Lifesaving, edited by B. Chris Brewster, published by BRADY/Prentice Hall (ISBN 0-8359-4919-2). Not sure what you're looking for, but they don't have a lot to say about surfskis. A little more about kayaks. There's an interesting lifeguard website run by Gerry Dworkin of Lifesaving Resources in New Hampshire --- http://www.lifesaving.com/wwwboard/wwwboard.html --- that you could look at and check out for info on surf ski racing. The people on that listserve (including Brewster, himself) were very helpful to me in getting information on suitable rescue devices for swim support work by sea kayak. You can get to Brewster that way, too. (If you want any more from his Manual, come back channel and I'll see if I can help you out. I bought the book, but definitely don't want to compromise copyright rules --- these guys and gals were very helpful.) Jack Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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