Thu, 25 May Rob Cookson wrote: RE: Dry Tops and Bibs vs Dry Suits: Kokotat--Original Message-----On Behalf Of ralph diaz: Thursday, May 25: To: Fred T, CA Kayaker, Subject (Re): Same "">R. Diaz:"On another note, I believe the TecTour top does not have a latex gasket at the neck, just the wrists."You are correct, the tec-tour has latex at the wrists but not at the neck. During a roll with this type of closure I find I get maybe a cup or two of water in at most. Definately not enough to make safety an issue....." While this may not be a major safety issue, I would recomend thought be given to it in the overall context of the paddling situation with consideration given to the worst possible conditions that may develop therein. Note that many kayaking "accidents" have been attributed to a melange of individually non-catastrouphic causes which in combination contributed to a disasterous result. P.S. The quotation at the end of your posts is tasty and nutritious food for thought. Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Tom and All: The same is true of aviation accidents. Small things combine to make Extreme Problems and can result in death. I think that we should be using a written "Check List" rather than following mental notes and forgetting something a few small things. Fred At 09:33 PM 5/26/2000 -0700, Tom wrote: >Thu, 25 May Rob Cookson wrote: RE: Dry Tops and Bibs vs Dry >Suits: Kokotat--Original Message-----On Behalf Of ralph diaz: Thursday, >May 25: To: Fred T, CA Kayaker, Subject (Re): Same >"">R. Diaz:"On another note, I believe the TecTour top does not have a >latex gasket at the neck, just the wrists."You are correct, the tec-tour >has latex at the wrists but not at the neck. During a roll with this type >of closure I find I get maybe a cup or two of water in at >most. Definately not enough to make safety an issue....." > >While this may not be a major safety issue, I would recomend thought be >given to it in the overall context of the paddling situation with >consideration given to the worst possible conditions that may develop >therein. Note that many kayaking "accidents" have been attributed to a >melange of individually non-catastrouphic causes which in combination >contributed to a disasterous result. > >P.S. The quotation at the end of your posts is tasty and nutritious food >for thought. > > > >Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not >to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ >*************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Tom and All, > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net]On Behalf Of Tom > > Thu, 25 May Rob Cookson wrote: RE: Dry Tops and Bibs vs Dry > Suits: Kokotat--Original Message-----On Behalf Of ralph diaz: > Thursday, May 25: To: Fred T, CA Kayaker, Subject (Re): Same > "">R. Diaz:"On another note, I believe the TecTour top does not > have a latex gasket at the neck, just the wrists."You are > correct, the tec-tour has latex at the wrists but not at the > neck. During a roll with this type of closure I find I get maybe > a cup or two of water in at most. Definately not enough to make > safety an issue....." > > While this may not be a major safety issue, I would recomend > thought be given to it in the overall context of the paddling > situation with consideration given to the worst possible > conditions that may develop therein. Though I agree with you that one needs to constantly be considering "what if" scenarios I don't think "worst case" scenario planning is needed to make prudent judgments. You rarely win in worst case situations. I'm splitting hairs here but I think that it is important to distinguish between likely mishaps and impending doom. I'm not going to give up sleeping on the beach out of fear of tidal waves. Nor will I put my lunch in a bear cannister for a walk in the local park. In my car I always wear a seatbelt but I never wear a fire suit or crash helmet; they would both likely be assets in worst case scenarios. I put on my safety belt and drive prudently. I'm comfortable with the risk level present, even though I could further reduce it by adding a roll cage and multi point harness. I can also reduce risk by avoiding roads with higher rated of accident occurrence, and avoid peak travel times, this reduces risk without additional equipment. Watch out Jed, here comes that broken record. It is important that each individual access the risks at hand and take whatever precautions they feel necessary to be comfortable with situation. Risk management should allow lots of individual room for choice. My main concern with the post was that it appeared as though Ralph was basing his assessment on speculation. What I would like to know is in what conditions he has seen bibs fail to the point of being dangerous. Speculation is fine but it should be labeled as such. I know Ralph has a big weekend but hopefully next week when things have settled down he will address this. Note that many kayaking > "accidents" have been attributed to a melange of individually > non-catastrouphic causes which in combination contributed to a > disasterous result. Absolutely. Several small problems combined can lead to disaster. Infact I think this is usually the case in accidents, several poor choices have been made that lead to trouble. However, I don't see how this relates specifically to bibs. Yes, water could enter through the folds. But the same problems exist with a drysuit, blow out a gasket or tear the suit on a rudder and water can get in. Does this mean that a wetsuit should always be worn under a drysuit? Somewhere you have to draw the line and decide that you have reduced risk to an acceptable level. You can't eliminate all risk. Additionally it seems to me that this method, belt and suspenders if you will, is seeking to minimize risk primarily with equipment. The first place to minimize risk is with judgment. My immersion gear is way way down on the list of things that I rely on for safety. One of the questions I like to ask students is "what is the most important piece of safety gear we have with us today?" Our brains is the answer I like and usually someone is pretty quick to get this. > > P.S. The quotation at the end of your posts is tasty and > nutritious food for thought. Thanks. I think so, it keeps me thinking. Those founders said some amazing things. I like this one too: "I like a little rebellion now and then. It is like a storm in the Atmosphere." Thomas Jefferson in a letter to Abigail Adams, February 22, 1787. Cheers, Rob Cookson Who also likes storms in the atmosphere. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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