After being on the PW list for the last 6 or 9 months I'm impressed at the level of sophistication of experienced sea kayakers putting an emphasis on risk assesement, rescues, self rescues, and the thin line between life and death in a sport that may be less risky than climbing high mountains, but still a somewhat risky business overall. And that is appropriate considering the naming of the list PaddleWise. I'm just wondering if anyone has any statistics on what the percentage of death rate of say, one death per 1,000 sea kayakers is? It just seems to me that everyone has a story to tell of a sea kayaker losing his/her life, whether first or second hand. How widespread is this? IOW, how risky really is the sport not in terms of personal assessement, but real stats? My presumption is that kayaking deaths are attributable to four main causes. 1. Sea kayakers who hit their heads on rocks or sea bottom, rolling in surf, with or without helmet. 2. Hypothermia. Not dressed for immersion temps but for air temps. 3. Inability to affect a good self-rescue or have a backup (see 2 above). 4. An existing medical condition (low/high blood pressure, diabetes, heart problems, seizures, etc.) I'm just curious if anyone has any information on the death rate of kayakers versus the usual boating crowd. While there are a lot of accidents and deaths among rec boaters due to alcohol, I think it probably wouldn't be a factor in kayaking. I have enough trouble getting into and out of my yak sober! -Nick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Nick Von Robison wrote: > I'm just wondering if anyone has any statistics on what the percentage > of death rate of say, one death per 1,000 sea kayakers is? It just > seems to me that everyone has a story to tell of a sea kayaker losing > his/her life, whether first or second hand. How widespread is this? > IOW, how risky really is the sport not in terms of personal assessement, > but real stats? I don't believe that anyone has done this for the sport of sea kayaking. Charlie Walbridge has been collecting stats on WW accidents and deaths for years - see: http://www.awa.org/awa/safety/index.html If we could get organized even loosely (for some reason the phrase "like herding cats" comes to mind) it might be possible to start something similar. And Paddlewise might be just organized enough to start something like this up - at least for North America (where PW seems to have it's widest membership). I think that when Charlie started collecting stats that it was outside of the formal organization of the AWA. If we could get participation from people all over the US & Canada we might be able to start something that could someday prove valuable. If anyone wants to delve into this further let me know either online or back channel - it might be a worthwhile venture. I'm not volunteering yet - but if there's enough interest - and if Jackie thinks that it might be a worthwhile PW project for an ongoing effort....... Dave Seng Juneau, Alaska *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Nick Von Robison wrote: > I'm just wondering if anyone has any statistics on what the percentage > of death rate of say, one death per 1,000 sea kayakers is? [snip] > > My presumption is that kayaking deaths are attributable to four main > causes. > > 1. Sea kayakers who hit their heads on rocks or sea bottom, rolling in > surf, with or without helmet. > > 2. Hypothermia. Not dressed for immersion temps but for air temps. > > 3. Inability to affect a good self-rescue or have a backup (see 2 above). > > 4. An existing medical condition (low/high blood pressure, diabetes, > heart problems, seizures, etc.) Nick, this is a terrific idea! If it goes further, I think it would be good to adopt some sort of "contributing factor" approach to assessing the "cause of death." What I'm getting at is that in most incidents leading to a death, such as those described in "Deep Trouble," there were usually (always?) a couple of errors of judgement **prior** to the circumstances which caused the loss of life. In the AAC's Accidents in North American Mountaineering (if memory serves), the assessment includes such things as: "... attempting a rock route without enough prior experience/skill in high-angle climbing..." "... inadequate practice/training in crevasse self rescue..." "...attempting a serious high-angle rock climb in the face of a well-forecasted severe ice storm..." and the like. In a paddling context, we should maybe try to find out also the degree of experience of the victim(s), and what got them into the pickle that did 'em in. I like your list for the first sort by category, but think we should shoot for more info, if this happens. Thanks for getting the ball rolling. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dave, Nick and .......... You are certainly on to something. There usually is more than one contributing factor in any accident. I would like to suggest that: Cause of Death, Cause of Accident and Existing Weather Conditions should be accounted for separately. Death in heavy surf from striking head would look like: 1 CS 8 1 = Closed Head Injury CS = Capsize In Surf 8 = Beaufort Scale Sea State A three tier classification system would then have three distinct characteristics and one would easily be able to determine the degree of impact that weather conditions (Beaufort Scale) had on the accident and the accident on the type of injuries sustained by the victim resulting in death. Something similar to how climbing routes are graded could be a portion of it. In any high risk endeavor such as mountain climbing, war, solo round the Horn sailboat racing and to some degree sea kayaking those that survive often detach themselves from those that don't by deciding that those that perished were somehow foolish and not as capable and that the survivor was not foolish and superior in their capabilities. Psychologically easier to accept than "There by the grace of God go I." At 09:30 PM 5/31/2000 -0700, Dave Kruger wrote: >Nick Von Robison wrote: > > > I'm just wondering if anyone has any statistics on what the percentage > > of death rate of say, one death per 1,000 sea kayakers is? [snip] > > > > My presumption is that kayaking deaths are attributable to four main > > causes. > > > > 1. Sea kayakers who hit their heads on rocks or sea bottom, rolling in > > surf, with or without helmet. > > > > 2. Hypothermia. Not dressed for immersion temps but for air temps. > > > > 3. Inability to affect a good self-rescue or have a backup (see 2 above). > > > > 4. An existing medical condition (low/high blood pressure, diabetes, > > heart problems, seizures, etc.) > >Nick, this is a terrific idea! > >If it goes further, I think it would be good to adopt some sort of >"contributing factor" approach to assessing the "cause of death." What I'm >getting at is that in most incidents leading to a death, such as those >described in "Deep Trouble," there were usually (always?) a couple of >errors of >judgement **prior** to the circumstances which caused the loss of life. > >In the AAC's Accidents in North American Mountaineering (if memory >serves), the >assessment includes such things as: "... attempting a rock route without >enough prior experience/skill in high-angle climbing..." "... inadequate >practice/training in crevasse self rescue..." "...attempting a serious >high-angle rock climb in the face of a well-forecasted severe ice >storm..." and >the like. > >In a paddling context, we should maybe try to find out also the degree of >experience of the victim(s), and what got them into the pickle that did >'em in. > >I like your list for the first sort by category, but think we should shoot for >more info, if this happens. > >Thanks for getting the ball rolling. > >-- >Dave Kruger >Astoria, OR >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not >to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ >*************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dave Kruger wrote: > Nick, this is a terrific idea! > > If it goes further, <snip> > Dave Seng wrote: If we could get participation from people all over the US & > Canada we might be able to start something that could someday prove > valuable. If anyone wants to delve into this further let me know either > online or back channel - it might be a worthwhile venture.<snip> > Whoa, I was only inquiring about any existing stats, not proposing that I or anyone else on PW compile them. The complexity of the task boggles me. In fact, a PW T-shirt task such as Bill Leonhardt took on (I'm wearing one now Bill, thanks!) is a bit too much for my capacity. Dave Seng (or anyone else) I would suggest that there are CG (or other agencies) files on sea kayaking deaths which are available for public perusal. > In a paddling context, we should maybe try to find out also the degree of > experience of the victim(s), and what got them into the pickle that did 'em in. > This raises the question of whether an autopsy has been done on kayaking deaths and if the coroners reports are public. I would assume so. We have a lot of swimming pool deaths here in California, seems like every week or so, and I think an autopsy is done in every case though the results are uncertain as to cause in any drowning situation for any number of reasons. To assess the skill level of any paddler would seem to be most difficult, especially after the fact. -Nick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.4.0 : Thu Aug 21 2025 - 16:33:14 PDT