I just read the description and review of dry suits in Sea Kayaker magazine, and it made no mention of such a fact. I doubt the author's technical merits. Maybe if paddling on the Great Salt Lake, the evaporation and precipitation of NaCl would clog the pores and reduce breathability, but it seems very unlikely. Please share the name of the guidebook - I will be paddling there in July with Ocean River Outfitters (Victoria). *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>I just read in a guidebook for paddling around Vancouver Island, BC, >that waterproof/breathable fabric looses it's waterproof capability in >saltwater. That is news to me. Anyone have firsthand info? >Steve Featherkile I paddle in salt water almost every day with gore-tex, and I've never had a problem with it. I've heard people say that as well, but I don't understand where that idea comes from. In any event, it's good to rinse it after each use, and now and then treat the surface with a repellent (Gore-Tex makes a product for this, and there are others - just make sure it's safe for breathable fabrics) - so the water will continue to bead. Melissa __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Steven Featherkile wrote: > > > > I just read in a guidebook for paddling around Vancouver Island, BC, > > that waterproof/breathable fabric looses it's waterproof > capability in > > saltwater. That is news to me. Anyone have firsthand info? No noticeable problems with Alaskan salt water. Like everything else, Gore-tex benefits from a little maintenance - in its case a rinse-down after use is good. Dave Seng Juneau, Alaska *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Kokatat contradicts this. I contacted them last year inquiring about maintenance. They said at that time saltwater doesn't deteriorate the suit at all. I've heard one case of a delamination of the goretex, but it was replaced by Kokatat. >> Steven Featherkile wrote: >>> >>> I just read in a guidebook for paddling around Vancouver Island, BC, >>> that waterproof/breathable fabric looses it's waterproof >> capability in >>> saltwater. That is news to me. Anyone have firsthand info? > > No noticeable problems with Alaskan salt water. Like everything else, > Gore-tex benefits from a little maintenance - in its case a rinse-down after > use is good. > > Dave Seng > Juneau, Alaska *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
The name of the book is Island Paddling, a paddler's guide to the Gulf Islands and Barkley Sound, but Mary Ann Snowden, 2ed 1997, Orca book Publishers, Victoria, BC. Seemingly a good source of info. Steve Featherkile NEWTOT_at_mail.modot.state.mo.us wrote: > I just read the description and review of dry suits in Sea Kayaker magazine, and > it made no mention of such a fact. I doubt the author's technical merits. > Maybe if paddling on the Great Salt Lake, the evaporation and precipitation of > NaCl would clog the pores and reduce breathability, but it seems very unlikely. > Please share the name of the guidebook - I will be paddling there in July with > Ocean River Outfitters (Victoria). > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not > to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Steven Featherkile wrote: > > I just read in a guidebook for paddling around Vancouver Island, BC, > that waterproof/breathable fabric looses it's waterproof capability in > saltwater. That is news to me. Anyone have firsthand info? Steve Cramer answered: >>I don't, but the Gore people do. Go to www.gore.com and do a search on salt water. About 1/2 way down the results page you will find this sentence: "GORE-TEX® Fabric Is Not Harmed By Salt Water!" Unfortunately, the link it points to is being remodeled. There was a bunch of nonsense about this on r.b.p recently, including someone who claimed that the salt crystals lodged in the pores and stretched them open. If you believe that salt water hurts waterproof/breathable fabric, you wouldn't dare sweat in the stuff, would you? Of course, othere manufacturers may say differently, and, as always, YMMV.<< Back from 1977 until 1980 I was production Manager at Early Winters, the first company to make outdoor products using Gore-Tex. I was also the company troubleshooter and I'm here to tell you there were many things that made "first generation" Gore-Tex leak, and I discovered several more by doing some testing using a device originally used in the promotion of Gore-Tex. Sweat was one of them. Detergents that didn't rinse out well, Suntan lotion, mosquito repellant, urine, snow crystals (self arrest practice) were some others. Salt water fishermen soon found it leaking (but some of that may have been due to the fish-oil soaked into them. Natural hair oil made all the hoods on the garments leak. The buzz among kayakers was that while it started out waterproof that during a salt water trip it seemed to lose that waterproofness over time. It was unclear at the time if it was salt build-up in the fabric or contaminates in the salt water causing the problem. The "second generation" of Gore-Tex reduced the pore size and breath ability somewhat but hydrophilic oils (like in sweat) weren't such a problem with it. I'm sure there has been many generations since then and I would bet it is far better today but I understand why Gore-Tex may have gotten that reputation (among old-timers anyhow). Funny how early on everyone who believed in the breath ability God (widely preached at the time just prior to the introduction of the new "miracle" fabric) thought there would be no condensation with a waterproof/breathable tent fabric. Same folks probably noticed how beautiful a bejeweled spider web looked on a cold humid morning but never connected the two. We may be getting a lesson in "Ad Speak" here. Gore says: "GORE-TEX® Fabric Is Not Harmed By Salt Water!" This may just mean that salt water does not harm Gore-Tex permanently, it just makes it leak until you can wash or rinse it completely out of the fabric. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Matt and All, > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net]On Behalf Of Matt Broze > It was unclear at > the time if > it was salt build-up in the fabric or contaminates in the salt > water causing > the problem. The "second generation" of Gore-Tex reduced the pore size and > breath ability somewhat but hydrophilic oils (like in sweat) > weren't such a > problem with it. I'm sure there has been many generations since then and I > would bet it is far better today but I understand why Gore-Tex may have > gotten that reputation (among old-timers anyhow). It is my understanding that Gore-Tex had a lot of problems early on. The most significant was that it was easily damaged by oil. Any oil, including that produced by your body. I was told (By Gore and manufacturers that use Gore-Tex, I used to buy clothing for a retailer) that despite all of the problems that early materials had, contamination by salt water was not one of them. Having owned some of the early generation gore products that were absolutely useless I was very skeptical of the new watersports garments. One of the reps loaned me one of his drytops back in '92 to try for a month or two, I was hooked. <SNIP> > We may be getting a lesson in "Ad Speak" here. Gore says: > "GORE-TEX® Fabric > Is Not Harmed By Salt Water!" This may just mean that salt water does not > harm Gore-Tex permanently, it just makes it leak until you can > wash or rinse > it completely out of the fabric. I don't think so Matt. First, there are several different Gore membranes that are used and different ways that they can be used. My experience is primarily with gores immersion-tec membrane. I can tell you from years of experience that salt water absolutely does not cause any leaks at all in this material. Gore immersion-tec also comes with the "guaranteed to keep you dry label" if it leaks at all it is 100% covered. Gore has the best satisfaction guarantee in the business. Kokatat has the most experience manufacturing with this material in watersports. I have never seen them fail to resolve any kind of problem with any of their garments with a customer. But, if one couldn't resolve their problem with the manufacturer Gore will stand behind the piece and issue full refund to the consumer. Basically you can't lose, if you buy a piece and you're not satisfied return it. Regarding breathability: I have never noticed any change in breathability in any of my gore pieces. Maybe it's affected maybe it isn't, I think that it's just too subtle to tell. There are a lot of myths that surround the product. ******Disclaimer***** As I've said before I don't work for Kokatat or Gore but I'm not unbiased. Cheers Rob Cookson "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" Benjamin Franklin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Rob Cookson wrote: [major snipaloo] > Regarding breathability: I have never noticed any change in breathability > in any of my gore pieces. Maybe it's affected maybe it isn't, I think that > it's just too subtle to tell. There are a lot of myths that surround the > product. Thanks for the authoritative post, Rob. Your experiences with earlier versions of the Goretex membrane correspond to mine. The modern stuff is good. The first stuff was bad (circa 1978) and caused me to avoid Goretex for some 15 years. One small addendum: My Kokatat Goretex paddling jacket **seems** to be less breathable after the DWR has diminished to the point water no longer beads up on the surface -- when the fabric "wets" and is uniformly damp. There is good theory re: vapor pressure and droplet size to support this impression. Of course, good theory don't make it so. I'll wager my six seasons of experience with this PJ against any theory any day. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR chemist *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Steven Featherkile said: >>The name of the book is Island Paddling, a paddler's guide to the Gulf Islands and Barkley Sound, but Mary Ann Snowden, 2ed 1997, Orca book Publishers, Victoria, BC. Seemingly a good source of info.<< I rather think Mary Ann Snowden was referring to earlier versions of Goretex, which I found did have some problems (and not just around salt water). I'm not convinced, however, that Gortex makes the best product anymore, though it is miles apart from earlier versions. BC'in Ya Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>From: Dave Kruger <dkruger_at_pacifier.com> >One small addendum: My Kokatat Goretex paddling jacket **seems** to be >less >breathable after the DWR has diminished to the point water no longer beads >up >on the surface -- when the fabric "wets" and is uniformly damp. There is >good >theory re: vapor pressure and droplet size to support this impression. Of >course, good theory don't make it so. I'll wager my six seasons of >experience >with this PJ against any theory any day. > >-- >Dave Kruger >Astoria, OR Here's my understanding of this phenomenon (based on the research and writing I do for a outdoor retailer's catalogue, which includes many Gore-Tex garments): When the surface face fabric "wets out" due to dirty or old DWR (Durable Water Repellency), the evaporative cooling that results also cools the inside surface of the garment. There's always vaporous perspiration present in the air between the wearer's body and the garment. When the inside face of the garment is cooled by the evaporative cooling of the surface fabric, more vapour condenses against the inside surface before it can "breath out" through the pores. The micropores are not "blocked", but just as they don't let liquid rain in, they can't breath out perspiration that's condensed to a liquid. Philip Torrens N49°16' W123°06' ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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