Last night I found some spider cracks in the gelcoat of my fiberglass NDK Romany Explorer. These cracks seem to have developed since I purchased the boat new exactly one year ago. They form about a 1.5 inch diameter circle at the moment. They are located beside the front hatch and just below the seam. The boat has not suffered any impact damage since I bought it. There is no evidence the boat has been struck at that point. My boat has led a very gentle life so far, and has never been subjected to heavy stress. I don't understand why these cracks have developed. Is this sort of thing common on fiberglass boats? Should I be concerned? Will the cracks widen and spread across the hull? Will these cracks lead to leaking? I'd appreciate any advice on how to deal with this problem. Thanks, Bruce *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I had that happen with my Nordkapp and they determined that it was a defective gelcoat that had become brittle and they gave me a new boat. cu -----Original Message----- From: owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net]On Behalf Of M. Lenon Sent: Friday, June 09, 2000 12:13 PM To: PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subject: [Paddlewise] Spider cracks in my new Romany Last night I found some spider cracks in the gelcoat of my fiberglass NDK Romany Explorer. These cracks seem to have developed since I purchased the boat new exactly one year ago. They form about a 1.5 inch diameter circle at the moment. They are located beside the front hatch and just below the seam. The boat has not suffered any impact damage since I bought it. There is no evidence the boat has been struck at that point. My boat has led a very gentle life so far, and has never been subjected to heavy stress. I don't understand why these cracks have developed. Is this sort of thing common on fiberglass boats? Should I be concerned? Will the cracks widen and spread across the hull? Will these cracks lead to leaking? I'd appreciate any advice on how to deal with this problem. Thanks, Bruce *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Denton <BDenton_at_aquagulf.com> > I had that happen with my Nordkapp and they determined that it was a > defective gelcoat that had become brittle and they gave me a new boat. > Thanks, Bob. Hopefully, my dealer, Rutabaga, in Madison, WI, will see it the same way. They're good people. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> > M. Lenon <lenonm_at_milwaukee.tec.wi.us> wrote: > > > Last night I found some spider cracks in the gelcoat of my > fiberglass NDK Romany > Explorer. > > These cracks seem to have developed since I purchased the boat > new exactly one year > ago. They form about a 1.5 inch diameter circle at the moment. > They are located > beside the front hatch and just below the seam. > > The boat has not suffered any impact damage since I bought it. > There is no evidence > the boat has been struck at that point. > > My boat has led a very gentle life so far, and has never been > subjected to heavy > stress. > > I don't understand why these cracks have developed. > > Is this sort of thing common on fiberglass boats? No, not unless they have taken a hard blow or a sustained deforming pressure on the side of the laminate opposite of the gelcoat. Did you jamb or wedge any "one last thing" into the hatch that might have pushed out against that area? Are you sure they are really cracks? Any chance that it has been there since the kayak was new and you hadn't noticed it until they got dirty? I ask this because the most likely cause of a spiderweb pattern is cracks in the gelcoat of the mold the parts were made from rather than cracks in the kayak. These cracks in the mold print onto all the parts that come out of that mold. They are not really cracks on the parts (but they sure look like they are). This usually happens to a mold when some parts stick in it and a rubber hammer is applied too aggressively to the outside of the mold to try to loosen the stuck parts. Note: The mold is hit from the side opposite its gelcoat surface and the point load stretches the relatively brittle gelcoat (compared to fiberglass--which stretches to absorb the blow) beyond its tensile strength. Until a repair is done to the mold every part taken out of it will have this exact same little pattern and when the buyer discovers it they then wonder what is going on or what has been done to their kayak. > > Should I be concerned? No, don't worry, be happy! >Will the cracks widen and spread across > the hull? Not likely, but if they do, be concerned with the unlikely possibility Bob Denton mentioned in his post below. I'm not convinced yet that brittle gelcoat was actually the problem Bob had. >Will these > cracks lead to leaking? Not unless the laminate is extremely thin and poorly wetted out (dry glass). Both extremely unlikely on a British Heavy. > > I'd appreciate any advice on how to deal with this problem. Report it in writing to whoever may be warranting it and say you are concerned but are willing to wait to see if it spreads or happens anywhere else on the kayak. Then ignore it unless it gets worse or happens to other areas. > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 12:29:53 -0400 > From: Bob Denton <BDenton_at_aquagulf.com> > Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Spider cracks in my new Romany > > I had that happen with my Nordkapp and they determined that it was a > defective gelcoat that had become brittle and they gave me a new boat. > > cu Can you give us more details Bob? How extensive was it on the Nordkapp? Hull and deck? Was the gelcoat especially thin or especially thick? Was the kayak stored in a closed garage attic during a hot summer? Who decided that brittle gelcoat was the problem, the dealer or manufacturer? Had they been having trouble with this sort of thing with other boats? Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In this case, the spider cracks appeared a year after the boat had been put in use. Lots of boats have been turned out of those molds since that time. Robert > From: Matt Broze <matt_at_marinerkayaks.com> > Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 20:33:29 -0700 > To: PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Spider cracks in my new Romany > > This usually happens to a mold when some parts stick in it and a > rubber hammer is applied too aggressively to the outside of the mold to try > to loosen the stuck parts. ...... Until a repair is done to the mold every part taken out of > it will have this exact same little pattern and when the buyer discovers it > they then wonder what is going on or what has been done to their kayak. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: Matt Broze <matt_at_marinerkayaks.com> > > > > M. Lenon <lenonm_at_milwaukee.tec.wi.us> wrote: > > > > Last night I found some spider cracks in the gelcoat of my > > fiberglass NDK Romany > > Explorer. > No, not unless they have taken a hard blow or a sustained deforming pressure > on the side of the laminate opposite of the gelcoat. Did you jamb or wedge > any "one last thing" into the hatch that might have pushed out against that > area? Nope. The boat has never been loaded with much of anything, save for the odd pair of running shoes and a towel, and occasionally some snacks. It's been paddled empty, essentially, for all of it's brief and easy life. > Are you sure they are really cracks? Any chance that it has been there since > the kayak was new and you hadn't noticed it until they got dirty? Ahhh... Hope springs eternal in the human breast. I leaped from my chair on reading this, Matt, and ran to the garage to check! No joy. :-( It looks cracked, for real. > > > > Should I be concerned? > > No, don't worry, be happy! Even if they really *are* cracks? I'm struggling with both of those at the moment. I don't know that I can ever be happy about this just because of the doubts it raises. Not only in *my* mind, but the minds of potential buyers should I someday decide to sell this boat. I wouldn't buy this boat used, unless the owner offered a massive discount off the fair market value. A local NDK dealer who was closing his business not long ago had an Explorer on his floor that had even bigger cracks running along the rear deck, as I recall. Nobody, including me, wanted to buy that one either. He eventually sold it, but I wonder what kind of sacrifice he had to make to unload it. Quite apart from whether there is actually any durability problem, and ignoring the aesthetic issues, I believe the resale value has been seriously diminished. I think most folks would take a look at these cracks, and move along to the next boat, preferring not to take any chances. Who could blame them? And buyers *would* see it, because I'd make a point of showing it to them. I'd never try to hide something I thought might be a potential problem. I guess it's time to take it up with Rutabaga. I appreciate your help, Matt. Thanks. Regards, Bruce *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Ever thought about grinding way the gelcoat [gasp! gasp!] and adding a new layer of gel? Are these cracks along a seam? Do you see a difference in glass thickness on the underside of the hull/crack? Does it leak? What did the dealer say??? Robert > From: "M. Lenon" <lenonm_at_milwaukee.tec.wi.us> > Reply-To: "M. Lenon" <lenonm_at_milwaukee.tec.wi.us> > Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 16:35:11 -0500 > To: Matt Broze <matt_at_marinerkayaks.com>, PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Spider cracks in my new Romany > >>> Last night I found some spider cracks in the gelcoat of my >>> fiberglass NDK Romany >>> Explorer. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
It is sometimes very hard to tell mold cracks (that print through to the boat) from the real thing. They even often look like "innies" rather than "outies". Flex the kayak a bit in that area if you can and look very closely (maybe with a magnifying glass). Do the cracks open up or closes slightly on flexing. Are they big enough to slip the corner of a sheet of paper into (or the finest automobile "feeler gauge"). If so they are really cracks but probably still of no consequence. Odds are even a professional fiberglass repair job wouldn't be able to match the gelcoat color perfectly or would leave a visible repair. Since the overwhelming odds are that the cracks are strictly superficial I'd not mess with them. Just make sure the dealer knows and has acknowledged you have told him of the problem on the slim chance this might be a gelcoat problem that could get worse (where it was put on way too thick and cracked because it got real hot and shrank more than the fiberglass beneath it). Still not anything but a cosmetic problem but you are right at resale time it might be hard to convince a nervous buyer of the lack of any problem. Feel free to give them my phone number if this happens and I'll be happy to talk to them about how insignificant this kind of thing usually is even if it is the result of a hard blow (if you don't see any broken fiberglass below it on the inside it is superficial damage). Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com > -----Original Message----- > From: M. Lenon [mailto:lenonm_at_milwaukee.tec.wi.us] > Sent: Monday, June 12, 2000 2:35 PM > To: Matt Broze; PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Spider cracks in my new Romany > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Matt Broze <matt_at_marinerkayaks.com> > > > > > > > > M. Lenon <lenonm_at_milwaukee.tec.wi.us> wrote: > > > > > > Last night I found some spider cracks in the gelcoat of my > > > fiberglass NDK Romany > > > Explorer. > > > No, not unless they have taken a hard blow or a sustained > deforming pressure > > on the side of the laminate opposite of the gelcoat. Did you > jamb or wedge > > any "one last thing" into the hatch that might have pushed out > against that > > area? > > Nope. The boat has never been loaded with much of anything, save > for the odd pair of > running shoes and a towel, and occasionally some snacks. It's > been paddled empty, > essentially, for all of it's brief and easy life. > > > Are you sure they are really cracks? Any chance that it has > been there since > > the kayak was new and you hadn't noticed it until they got dirty? > > Ahhh... Hope springs eternal in the human breast. I leaped from > my chair on reading > this, Matt, and ran to the garage to check! No joy. :-( > > It looks cracked, for real. > > > > > > > Should I be concerned? > > > > No, don't worry, be happy! > > Even if they really *are* cracks? > > I'm struggling with both of those at the moment. I don't know > that I can ever be > happy about this just because of the doubts it raises. Not only > in *my* mind, but the > minds of potential buyers should I someday decide to sell this > boat. I wouldn't buy > this boat used, unless the owner offered a massive discount off > the fair market > value. A local NDK dealer who was closing his business not long > ago had an Explorer > on his floor that had even bigger cracks running along the rear > deck, as I recall. > Nobody, including me, wanted to buy that one either. He > eventually sold it, but I > wonder what kind of sacrifice he had to make to unload it. > > Quite apart from whether there is actually any durability > problem, and ignoring the > aesthetic issues, I believe the resale value has been seriously > diminished. I think > most folks would take a look at these cracks, and move along to > the next boat, > preferring not to take any chances. Who could blame them? And > buyers *would* see it, > because I'd make a point of showing it to them. I'd never try to > hide something I > thought might be a potential problem. > > I guess it's time to take it up with Rutabaga. > > I appreciate your help, Matt. Thanks. > > Regards, > > Bruce > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt: What do you think about rubbing down the area with pencil lead? If they are cracks, the graphite would probably get into the cracks and resist being wiped away. Robert > From: Matt Broze <matt_at_marinerkayaks.com> > Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 20:04:33 -0700 > To: "M. Lenon" <lenonm_at_milwaukee.tec.wi.us> > Cc: Paddlewise <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net> > Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Spider cracks in my new Romany > > Flex the kayak a bit in that area if you can and look very closely > (maybe with a magnifying glass). Do the cracks open up or closes slightly on > flexing. Are they big enough to slip the corner of a sheet of paper into (or > the finest automobile "feeler gauge"). If so they are really cracks but > probably still of no consequence. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
When my latest Nordkapp arrived there were a couple of spider cracks that appeared to have happened in shipping. As a test, I ground one out and filled it with epoxy and left the other. There has been no change in either and no additional cracks. The boat has been walloped a few times and nothing notable has happened to the gelcoat. As an aside, it's been paddled in the Florida sun year-round for two years. I installed the day hatch a few weeks after I received the boat and came across the yellow cut out decking the other day. I compared it with the color of the boat and it was identical! Absolutely no fading but I have been using 303 every month or so. I'm sold! cya -----Original Message----- From: owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net]On Behalf Of M. Lenon Sent: Monday, June 12, 2000 5:35 PM To: Matt Broze; PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Spider cracks in my new Romany ----- Original Message ----- From: Matt Broze <matt_at_marinerkayaks.com> > > > > M. Lenon <lenonm_at_milwaukee.tec.wi.us> wrote: > > > > Last night I found some spider cracks in the gelcoat of my > > fiberglass NDK Romany > > Explorer. > No, not unless they have taken a hard blow or a sustained deforming pressure > on the side of the laminate opposite of the gelcoat. Did you jamb or wedge > any "one last thing" into the hatch that might have pushed out against that > area? Nope. The boat has never been loaded with much of anything, save for the odd pair of running shoes and a towel, and occasionally some snacks. It's been paddled empty, essentially, for all of it's brief and easy life. > Are you sure they are really cracks? Any chance that it has been there since > the kayak was new and you hadn't noticed it until they got dirty? Ahhh... Hope springs eternal in the human breast. I leaped from my chair on reading this, Matt, and ran to the garage to check! No joy. :-( It looks cracked, for real. > > > > Should I be concerned? > > No, don't worry, be happy! Even if they really *are* cracks? I'm struggling with both of those at the moment. I don't know that I can ever be happy about this just because of the doubts it raises. Not only in *my* mind, but the minds of potential buyers should I someday decide to sell this boat. I wouldn't buy this boat used, unless the owner offered a massive discount off the fair market value. A local NDK dealer who was closing his business not long ago had an Explorer on his floor that had even bigger cracks running along the rear deck, as I recall. Nobody, including me, wanted to buy that one either. He eventually sold it, but I wonder what kind of sacrifice he had to make to unload it. Quite apart from whether there is actually any durability problem, and ignoring the aesthetic issues, I believe the resale value has been seriously diminished. I think most folks would take a look at these cracks, and move along to the next boat, preferring not to take any chances. Who could blame them? And buyers *would* see it, because I'd make a point of showing it to them. I'd never try to hide something I thought might be a potential problem. I guess it's time to take it up with Rutabaga. I appreciate your help, Matt. Thanks. Regards, Bruce *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I've never tried this. It might work but if they are cracks it might be a pain with the pencil lead leaking out over time. Okay, I just tried it on a piece of hatch cut-out I had bent outward to put stress cracks in the gelcoat. So much for speculation, it is harder to clean off the pencil "lead" I rubbed on from the good gelcoat than it is from the cracks. It did show up the real cracks while I was doing it though. Perhaps powdered charcoal or ashes would avoid marking up the gelcoat with pencil "lead" and still show up real cracks. Unfortunately, I don't have a spider print imprinted piece handy to compare it to. It might collect charcoal too. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Robert C. Cline [mailto:rccline_at_swbell.net] > Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2000 12:17 PM > To: PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Spider cracks in my new Romany > > > Matt: What do you think about rubbing down the area with pencil lead? If > they are cracks, the graphite would probably get into the cracks > and resist > being wiped away. > > Robert Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt Broze wrote: > I've never tried this. It might work but if they are cracks it might be a > pain with the pencil lead leaking out over time. > Okay, I just tried it on a piece of hatch cut-out I had bent outward to put > stress cracks in the gelcoat. So much for speculation, it is harder to clean > off the pencil "lead" I rubbed on from the good gelcoat than it is from the > cracks. It did show up the real cracks while I was doing it though. Perhaps > powdered charcoal or ashes would avoid marking up the gelcoat with pencil > "lead" and still show up real cracks. If you're really serious about checking out fine cracks vs surface marks, there is a system known as "dye penetrant" that is used in many industries. I used to use it when I was a weld inspector. You spray on a very thin dye (sort of like WD-40 in consistency but a bright red color), wipe off the excess, then spray on a white coating and wait. If there is a crack, the dye will seep out and stain the white coating. You can probably get the stuff through aircraft supply shops or welding shops. This is kinda academic, since the cost is probably way more than you'd be willing to pay. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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