RE: [Paddlewise] Sea Kayakers Behavior - commando pooping

This may not be an appealing subject, but someone aught
to bring it up.

Even if you have a cat hole trowel and dig a deep enough
hole and cover your poop and paper up with dirt afterwards,
you still leave what I'll call for lack of a better word
a disturbance of the land. A much better idea is to carry
some heavy duty trash bags, do your number in one, and
CARRY THE WHOLE THING OUT with you until you can find a
proper way to dispose of it.

As for fires, you should not build a fire on someone's property
even if you are sure it cannot be seen. Put yourself in the
property owner's place. Would you like strangers building
fires on your land?


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net
[mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net]On Behalf Of Wes Boyd
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2000 2:22 PM
To: ralph diaz
Cc: paddlewise
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Sea Kayakers Behavior


At 11:23 AM 7/6/00 -0700, ralph diaz wrote:
>Bill Hansen wrote:
>>
>> I'm not sure if , in his letter to PW, Ralph refers only to emergency
>> camping, or what he calls "commando" camping, or to camping at all times.
>> Either way, I'm inclined to think one should always ask if it's possible
to
>> ask. And I don't think non-emergency camping should be ever done on
private
>> property unless we've secured permission in advance (that is, if you
can't
>> reach the owners, just don't camp there).
>
>I was unabashedly referring to non-emergency camping as well as
>emergency.
>
>On long stretches of paddling waters, it really is hard to avoid camping
>on private property.  My first choice is to find some railroad or
>utilities property such as we have along the Hudson River or a quiet
>sparsely visited corner of some parkland.  While there is a Hudson River
>Watertrail, most people who have paddled its length have had to do some
>commando camping since the legal sites are not evenly spaced.  It is
>hard to figure out places to seek permission.  Again, using the Hudson

In general, I'd have to say that "commando" camping isn't a good idea. That
is, in general -- there may be some specific exceptions.

I'm going to head a little off-topic here. Until the end of last month, I
was the editor of "North Star -- The Magazine of the North Country Trail".
In that position, I got to know some memorable characters.  One guy, in
particular is as serious a hiker as I've ever known -- he spends upwards of
200 days a year on some trail or other, to the tune of several thousand
miles a year. He is, as far as I know, the only person to have end-to-ended
all eight of the National Scenic Trails (I'm not absoulutely sure about
that -- a while back he hadn't done the Natchez Trace, but it was on his
list and he's had the time). In addition, he's done several
transcontinental walks, and hiked many other trails. His opinion is that
it's impossible to do most of the National Scenic Trails without "stealth"
camping, which he had done a lot of. On some "trails" -- such as the
American Discovery, especially in the midwest, although the North Country
has some long dry stretches -- it can be hundreds of miles between places
where there's places to legally camp. We're talking pretty stealthy, too --
get in late, unroll the bivy, no cooking in camp, and be on the road by
dawn. He has been known to ask permission, but he's spent many a night in a
cornfield without anyone being the wiser. But, that's a long way from
trashing a posted area, such as was mentioned in the first part of the
paddlers.net article.

Speaking for myself, I generally prefer to plan boat camping trips in
places where there is adequate public land to allow legal camping. But, as
Ralph points out, it isn't always the case. For instance, I've given some
though to end-to-ending the Mississippi (I don't know where I'd ever find
the time, but it's a fun intellectual exercise to consider.) In a situation
like that, there are going to be plenty of places where it's necessary to
stop, but where there aren't adequate public lands to be able to do so.
And, in many places, it may be impossible to find someone to ask. My first
choice in such a situation would be to find someone to ask, if possible --
"Any place around here where I can camp for the night?" -- but if the area
is so uninhabited that there's no one to ask, and there's no posting of
property, I'd probably not worry too much about it.


>"commando" camping.  The whole point of using the term commando is to
>denote clearly that; like a commando you make your presence unknown
>while you are there and no trace of you remains after you leave.  The
>term commando was picked with considerable thought.  If one wants to
>emphasize the sneakiness of it that is fine.  My point was the invisible
>presence a la commandos.

My friend uses the term "stealth camping", which I think I prefer. Commando
implies some sort of assault. But, it's your book.


>For example, on the question of an open fire, I came down hard on that
>in the commando camping part of the Camping chapter.  No open fires.  A
>self contained camping stove fire is another thing.

Yeah, that has nothing to do with the concept. My hiking friend rarely even
cooked in his overnight camp -- he felt there were better places.


>bicycling.  Perhaps my mistake was in openly discussing commando camping
>and codifying it.  But I felt a lot of people don't know about just how
>low-impact you can get in camping.  My book has a lot of off-beat things

I know the feeling. As the North Star editor, I several times thought about
doing an article about "stealth camping", but figureed that I'd get enough
static about it that I really shouldn't. No guts, I guess.


>BTW when I had 10 acres of property in the Catskills I never posted no
>traspessing signs etc.  I felt that I did not really own the trees,
>rocks and earth in my deed but only a right to build on it.  Obviously I

There is much private property that is unposted for that reason. It's
rarely advertised, since people don't want it known. Unfortunately, it's
becoming less and less all the while -- and for obivous reasons.

-- Wes

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