RE: [Paddlewise] Policy Intended To Protect PaddleWise Members From Misquotings

> Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 00:07:37 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Jackie Fenton <jackie_at_intelenet.net>
> Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Policy Intended To Protect PaddleWise Members From
Misquotings
>
> > From: "M. Lenon" <lenonm_at_milwaukee.tec.wi.us>
>
> <snip>
>
> > May we see a copy of this notice?  Am I to understand, then, that
> > this Nelson woman considers it her legal right to quote anything
> > I might write on this list? By what legal right does she do this?
>
>
> Hi Bruce,
>
> Actually, if I forwarded Ms. Nelson's notice then I would pretty much be
> climbing into the same boat as the individual that violated policy here.

Well... I believe your motives to be good, and I respect them. :-) I'm not suggesting
you're wrong, but I would argue that if Ms. Nelson's "notice" directly affects *me*,
that if she has announced to you that she intends to use *my* words (in effect, along
with every other member's words, too) without my permission and only with this
"notice" to *you*, then perhaps her "notice" to you is also effectively a notice to
*me*, and I am, therefore, entitled to see it. And address it.

(How am I doin' here, Mark? Am I at least in the ballpark? I'm not seeking legal
advice, of course! I'll consult my own lawyer in my own jurisdiction for that! See?
I've been paying attention. :-)

Now, if it was her stated intent to use *your* words, Jackie, against your will, and
*only your words*, then I could understand your reluctance to share this "notice."
But, you say she intends to "paraphrase," perhaps liberally, from the entire body of
messages in PaddleWise. That includes *me*.

That disturbs me. Her conduct is, in my view, unethical. I would further add that
people who are guilty of such behavior have *forfeited* any number of considerations
that would otherwise have been accorded them. I mark a distinction between good and
evil behavior, and how I deal with the people involved. I do NOT treat them equally.
That's *me*, however, and I'm not suggesting that other folks are obliged to adopt
the same views.

Perhaps this is just an unfortunate misunderstanding, one that Ms. Nelson would like
to correct?

Maybe it would help, Jackie, if you could tell me who this Tamia Nelson is. What is
the address of her website? Do I understand correctly that she wrote an article on
camping? Is this article available on the web? After all, I did just sort of "rise to
the bait," objecting on principal, without having read a word of anything Ms. Nelson
has written. I don't mean to suggest that had she written something I agreed with
that I'd subsequently agree with her unauthorized "paraphrasing" from PaddleWise
email, rather, I'm just looking for a way to perhaps mediate this problem and come to
a happy conclusion if at all possible. I'll take "nice" over "ugly" any day, and I'm
always willing to yield and compromise --- *where possible*. :-)

Maybe I need to back up a bit. Can you point me in the right direction? :-)

> As far as I know, Ms. Nelson has not posted her article.  Maybe she has
> re-considered and decided it would not be in the best interest of the
> paddling community.

[heh, heh] No comment...

> > You know, when I first read that "Commando Camping" post from
> > "Kasia" with a Hotmail account, whom I'd never seen before, my
> > first thought was that it was a blatant troll.
>
> Actually, I think Kasia was sincere and I don't believe she has
> anything to do with Ms. Nelson.  I truly don't.

Hmmm... This sounds as though you may have had a private exchange with "Kasia." Why
else would you be so sure?

Don't answer that, Jackie. It's not a question. :-)

That would fit nicely into my mystery puzzle. It's just what I'd expect "Kasia,"
a.k.a. Tamia, to do. "Gee," Tamia a.k.a. "Kasia" might write in a hurt tone, "and
here I'd heard what a nice bunch the PaddleWisers were. I didn't mean anything. I
guess I'll just mosey along now." Deflect suspicion. And disappear.

The person who wrote the "Kasia" post is no dumbie. I gotta hand it to her --- she's


slick. Just maybe a bit too good a writer, though, you know? Like a pro, maybe. In my
limited experience, it's unusual for someone so literate, so well-spoken, to write
such an ill-bred, ill-mannered, low-life, provocative email to a new group,
exhibiting such blatant disregard for the rights of others. Very odd.

Yes, I know about the rich. But, they don't mingle with the Great Unwashed writing
provocative emails, do they? :-)

Yo! Tamia! Next time throw in some spelling and grammatical errors!

Hubris! It'll get 'em every time. :-)

Okay then. You're a "good egg," Jackie, as my Marie would say, and I'd never fault
you for that.

But, call me Suspicious...

I'd still like to see a trace run on that hotmail account to see where it leads. Just
to satisfy my "curiosity." :-)

Did "Kasia" post more than ONE message?

Given the clearly highly opinionated and provocative nature of "Kasia's" original
post, specifically requesting feedback on this particular issue of "Commando
Camping," and as one who goes out of her way to paddle over to "NO TRESPASSING"
signs to have her defiant photo taken, it seems passing strange that she had no
retort to the harsh words directed her way.

This doesn't ring true.

The "Kasia," if she's real, who wrote the "Commando Camping" solicitation would have
been in-your-face, combative, argumentative, and ready to pursue it 'till hell froze
over. Her post was DELIBERATELY PROVOCATIVE.

I suggest that "Kasia's" post would have been extreme for even Rec.Boats.Paddle.
(They've got a good core group over there, people with their heads screwed on
straight. They're responsible paddlers who do a good job of herding the riff-raff
that jumps into their group. I like 'em.)

Furthermore, that post was not one of a neophyte. The person who wrote that was an
experienced newsgroup writer. It was very carefully crafted (and extraordinarily
well-written, I might add, which in itself is quite unusual), very artfully
manipulative, angering the reader, and designed, I suggest, to elicit the very sort
of quotes that Ms. Tamia Nelson would want. It had "punch." It was no shrinking
wallflower who wrote that post. It was not someone who'd run away at the first sign
of criticism.

There aren't many people who'd post something as provocative as what "Kasia" did. Not
real people. And those who *would*?! Why, they'd stay to enjoy the fight, of course.
It's what they *came* for!

No. This doesn't make sense to me. Is "Kasia" real?

I looked up kasia_pierzga_at_hotmail.com in Deja. My search turned up nothing. No
messages. That's odd. Whoever wrote that "Kasia" message wasn't writing their
first-ever newsgroup message; it was written by an experienced newsgroup writer. Is
it plausible that her writing has been confined to nothing but listservers which
might not be on Deja? Just changed her account name, maybe? Maybe. Maybe just another
coincidence... Maybe Deja's not working right now. Perhaps someone else more
experienced with these things could look for "Kasia."

Now, all the while this is taking place on PW, Ms. Nelson just coincidentally happens
to be writing a follow-up article to an original piece on "Commando Camping." And Ms.
Nelson is in need, apparently, of useful "quotes," enough in need that she's willing
to defiantly "take" them regardless of being denied permission. Hmmm... that sounds
familiar.

Ms. Nelson asks for permission to use quotes from the PW discussion (generated ever
so conveniently by "Kasia") immediately after a good many "juicy quotes" have been
written!

What remarkable timing! What an amazing coincidence!

Not only does a discussion "suddenly" spring up on PW about the very subject Ms.
Nelson needs quotes for, but (wonder of wonders!) an INFORMANT "leaks" quotes to her.
Just when she needs them.

Extraordinary! What remarkable good fortune for Ms. Tamia Nelson!

Boy! Some days things just really go your way, don't they?!

Folks, I don't believe it.

If I've made a muddle of things here, I'd be grateful if someone would straighten me
out. Heaven knows it wouldn't be the first time I'd completely misjudged events...
:-)

Perhaps Ms. Tamia Nelson would like to straighten me out? You ARE reading this,
aren't you, Ms. Nelson? Do come forward and set me straight, won't you, please?

Oh, and lest I forget, MS. TAMIA NELSON, you are hereby expressly denied the use of
my words in any form whatsoever for any use whatsoever.

Right then. Enough of that.

<snip>

> Thanks for your support, Bruce.

You're most welcome, Jackie. You've *earned* it for the Quality List you have created
and nurtured. :-)

Best Regards,

Bruce







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