Warning. LONG. My wife and I were finally able to get out on the water for the first time since February, on Saturday (29 Jul). We took some friends out to Port Townsend, WA, for a 3 hour tour with Kayak Port Townsend, for their first time kayaking. This trip has inspired some comments and questions for me, so... The tour was a 3 hour trip to Bird Island, to the East of PT. Weather was unbelievable, (No rain...don't tell, it really doesn't rain ALL the time up here...) the group was the guide in a single, a guest in a single, my friends in a double (really a triple, but...), and Val and I in a double. We had kayaked with KPT before for our first time, so we were comfortable with the location in general, etc... We got the basic instruction on how to use the paddle, put on spray skirt, etc. and got to the boats. At the boats we adjusted pedals and pegs, and got ready to go. We got into the water, and got moving, at this point Val and I both realized that our pedals and pegs respectively, were not quite right. Val, in back and controlling the ruder, was better off, but had to really stretch to get the rudder to work effectively. I attempted to adjust my pegs by snagging them with my toes and pulling towards me... Turns out the left peg could only really be worked by hand (needed to be wiggled to move it back up the rail), so I was stuck with that peg out too far. The right peg moved well, and I ended up with a peg up near my knees...completely useless. I ended up wedging my right foot under my left leg and using that for bracing. 1. I realize now that the problem I had initially adjusting my foot pegs seems to relate to the fact that in order to get into a position that my thighs are actually braced properly, my feet (8 1/2s), with heels on the hull, can only grip the pegs with my toes, and this caused my calves to start to cramp almost immediately. Seems to be a combination of a cockpit that is wider than I should probably be using, and peg mounts higher that I should use. (I'm 5'8", 32" inseam) Does this occur for other people in a double, or is it "just me"? 2. NEVER (insert disclaimer for global statement here) be afraid to hold up a group at a start to ensure you are set up properly. Val and I should have asked the group to hold up, and ensured we were rigged properly before beginning the "crossing". 3. How much rescue recovery training should people get in general for an outing like this? we got none, and I don't know yet if my friends would have liked some or if ignorance was bliss? (Not my preferred policy, but...) As we got onto the water, which was beautiful...moving, ripply, but pleasant, little to no wind, and only the occasional power boat or ferry wake. I realized at this point that I was having problems with the idea of 'open water', a problem I have not had previously, and can only attribute to my last paddling experience in February. Briefly, we were paddling off Maui, I got a single SOT for the first time in a SOT or a single, (my wife and brother were in a double SOT)... The waves and wind were different (i.e. worse) than anything we had experienced before in 3 other trips. I ended up going over twice in the space of 30 minutes (to include having my glasses hammered against my face by the boat the second time). This experience appears to have made me a "touch" wary of open water, and combined with the fact that I didn't feel "as one with the boat" made for a only semi enjoyable experience on the way out to Bird Island. 4. For me, this experience means some more time closer to the coast (Lake Union, etc...) as a confidence building exercise. I'm normally a believer in the "get back on the horse" method of over coming fears, but I spent too much time aggravating the situation by being tense, and I enjoy kayaking too much to go out and have a life endangering experience and get turned off. Any comments? 5. In general what to people who drive both cockpit and SOT boats feel about the stability, etc. of SOT boats. I don't remember what model we had but it seemed to weather cock badly, turned like a pig, and was just too high up for me... (Only time I've really had good foot position though :) ) Once we got to Bird Island, I calmed down a bit, and started enjoying the trip a bit more. We passed under a platform that was home to about a dozen cormorants, then we rode the current around the island listening to the chorus of the hundreds of seagulls that give the island it's name. We passed over a huge field of eel grass that made it almost impossible to paddle it was so dense. Great way to be forced to relax. It looked like some one has stick thousands of green cheerleading pom-poms just under the surface of the water, and then ran a current over them. Really neat. We came around the island, between the neighboring island (don't remember the name, it's a US Navy reservation though) and saw, and were followed by between 2 and 5 young harbor seals. When we stopped for a cookie break we had 2 on our right and another on our left for a few minutes. I love kayaking! The moment was ruined, however, when an 'Zodiac' with an outboard and about 7 people onboard screamed by... Bird Island is actually attached to a neighboring island by a land bridge when the tide drops low enough, which today it had. When we initially got to the island the bridge was "up". In the time we came around the island and took a break, the bridge had come "down" enough for us to cross. Another unbelievable kayaking experience. We all sprinted through the gap, clearing by probably an 1/2" in one spot, scraping paddles on rocks, as we watched the current boil to our left around the newly "reislanded" Bird Island. 6. Insert comments about small powerboats vs. calm and kayaks here. As we headed back, I was still nervous about the open water, but more comfortable in the boat as I had been able to adjust my pegs when we rafted up for out cookie break. In part due to stress, and my desire to reach the other side we realized that we kept pulling ahead of the group (Val tells me we did it on the way over as well, ooops). The other part of the speed thing seems to be that Val and I seem to have a fairly efficient forward stroke, and most of the time are almost perfectly synced (so she tells me, I get top sit in front, so... :) ) This was even using the narrow Werner paddles, instead of the broader Werners we have previously used. (god only know how far ahead we would be had we used them...) 7. I think our paddling style works best with the bigger paddles vs. what I think I remember reading are "cruising" kayaks, that we were using. I didn't feel like I got quite the "bite" with the narrow paddles. I think that the narrow ones are generally recommended for long hauls, etc... is this an accurate statement? 8. We saw a couple at a distance in the brightest green double we had ever seen. They had what appeared to be metallic or simply high gloss blue or purply paddles with a yellow spot in the center. Any ideas what kind of paddles these might have been? After a "soaking" experience with a bow wave from a powerboat, that I had us go into bow on, since I wasn't about to be caught broadside (possible an overreaction, but..) we finally got to the other side, and tooled through the PT marina for a cool down. Second time we have done this, and really neat, glassy smooth, and got to take a look at the bigger boats. When we got back to the shore, I was able to take out the other single that had been taken out. WOW! This was my first cockpit single, and it reaffirmed my desire to spend more time kayaking. After a tweak to the rudder pedal straps, I dropped into the cockpit, and it was just like putting on a pair of pants, all the heights/lengths were perfect, and I was perfectly braced... Took it out for a spin for a few minutes, and it handled like a dream. Coming from the double it felt like going from the family station wagon to a sports car. 9. In general what do people think of Necky boats, and in specific of their Tesla? Nice lines and seems to fit me well. Does anyone have the dimensions for these boats, the Neck side doens't appear to... Thanks for the time. Hope everyone had a great paddling weekend! Aaron Cunningham (who really needs to use sunscreen or long-sleeved shirts when he paddles) PS. Thanks to anyone who responded to an earlier question about equipment and clothing. I know people responded, but I haven't had a chance to recover the machine that has that set of mail files. (Power surges are a bad thing...) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
<3. How much rescue recovery training should people get in general for an outing like this? we got none, and I don't know yet if my friends would have liked some or if ignorance was bliss?> Any commercial outfitter that knowingly puts first-timers in decked boats on open water without some comprehensive wet exit and group and individual rescue training does not, in my opinion, deserve to be in business. It's an accident waiting to happen, and the company is displaying unconscionable behavior. Your friends probably were in the same kayak culture-shock that all first timers experience in the challenge of open water, and could not be expected to know better, but you folks seem to have known enough to realize that something important was missing --- i.e., basic safety requirements on the part of the guide --- and should have spoken up on their behalf. A double, full of water, two newbies in cold water, and a guide of questionable value at best, might have given you something entirely different to describe in your report. Thanks for writing it, however. It's good to see kayaking from the perspective of newer paddlers, and puts a different set of questions in front of the list. Jack Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Jack and All, Oh boy here we go again. I'll take the extremely unpopular commercial side of this. I have my nomex undies on so flame away. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net > [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net]On Behalf Of JCMARTIN43_at_aol.com > > <3. How much rescue recovery training should people get in > general for an outing like this? we got none, and I don't know > yet if my friends would have liked some or if ignorance was bliss?> > > I have been leading tours ranging from 1 to 14 days as well as teaching classes since 1988. I have a good safety record. In those years I have taken thousands of first time paddlers out and brought them all back, and most of them (on tours) as dry as when they left. I have a reputation for getting folks very wet in classes as I like to teach rescues in a variety of conditions not just in a pool. > Any commercial outfitter that knowingly puts first-timers in > decked boats on open water without some comprehensive wet exit > and group and individual rescue training does not, in my opinion, > deserve to be in business. It's an accident waiting to happen, > and the company is displaying unconscionable behavior. If you mean pre trip discussion I agree, If you mean in water clases I disagree. I wonder if you could point me to examples of clients that were not rescued by their guides on commercial trips? I believe there was an incident in Canada a few years back that resulted in one or more fatalities and there was an incident here in WA where a group was rescued by a ferry. How often are clients not being rescued by guides in the event of a capsize? This, in my opinion, is like requiring all airline passengers to have jump training. Or perhaps more like making wale watch tours do man overboard drills. Drivers education doesn't include skid school, or victim extraction in the event of a crash. It is the guides job to keep the group in safe and manageable conditions, and to keep new paddlers out of conditions where a capsize is likely. Yes I know that a capsize can happen in calm water 2 feet from shore but it isn't likely. Risk can't be eliminated, so we try to reduce it to an acceptable level and manage it responsibly. Believe me when I lead a tour I feel extremely responsible for the well being of my clients. They have put their faith in me and I don't take that lightly. During my pre tour talk I always discuss the possibility of capsize and what to do if it happens, how to exit the boat, and how a rescue will be handled if it happens. I generally use singles for my tours so capsize is more likely than with outfitters that use only doubles. Even in singles it is unusual for me to have a capsize on a tour. Some years I have a couple of clients capsize and others I have none. The boats I use are all easy to enter and exit and I use skirts that will blow off the cockpit very easily, they will not keep the paddler attached to the boat even if they forget to pull the skirt. Entrapment in the boat is hard to achieve, it is usually more difficult to get new paddlers to stay in the boat for roll lessons than it is to get them to exit. I have seen students exit the boat and not even get their hair wet because they bailed out so quickly. I agree that some outfitters are better than others and I have seen some shake and bake outfits, but the high volume of people taking tours, and the low number of fatalities indicates to me the problem isn't very large. People shouldn't be afraid to ask questions of an outfitter before signing up for a tour. How much experience does the guide have? Has he led this trip before? What is the guide to boat ratio? Am I likely to capsize? I have no experience, is this tour appropriate for me? I agree that a guide should discuss capsize procedure before ever putting clients on the water. A guide should be so comfortable with rescues that they can do them in their sleep in conditions far worse than they would ever take their clients in. But most importantly a guide should understand conditions that are likely to cause a capsize in the first place and reduce exposure to them. Regarding the foot braces. I either check the footbrace adjustment myself of have an assistant check the braces pre launch. I also tell clients that they can be re-adjusted on the water. I always tell clients that if they have any questions or are uncomfortable with any aspect of the tour they should speak with one of the guides; we really are there to help. The perception of safety is also a relative thing. I know I have had clients that were very nervous in conditions that were extremely safe, and I have also heard tales from paddlers that were in way over their heads that weren't nervous at all. Fear is a funny thing. So there you have it, my Monday morning rant. I hope you all have a fun and safe week and spend more time in your boats than in front of a monitor. Cheers, Rob Cookson "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" Benjamin Franklin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
-----Original Message----- From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net]On Behalf Of Rob Cookson Sent: Monday, July 31, 2000 9:04 AM To: JCMARTIN43_at_aol.com; acunning_at_seanet.com; paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Part-Day Tour Inspired Comments/Questions... (LONG) >> So there you have it, my Monday morning rant. Not rant at all, Bob. Your notes makes perfect sense. Jack Fu *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 08:15 AM 7/31/00 -0400, JCMARTIN43_at_aol.com wrote: ><3. How much rescue recovery training should people get in general for an >outing like this? we got none, and I don't know yet if my friends would >have liked some or if ignorance was bliss?> > > >Any commercial outfitter that knowingly puts first-timers in decked boats >on open water without some comprehensive wet exit and group and individual >rescue training does not, in my opinion, deserve to be in business. It's >an accident waiting to happen, and the company is displaying >unconscionable behavior. I kind of agree with Jack on this, although my position is a bit more moderate. I rarely guide sea kayaking trips, but when I do, my company (the Kayak Academy) requires that all participants practice the wet-exit. This can be very effective for people who are scared of the water or scared of tipping over, or scared of being trapped. I would suspect that at least half of all new paddlers have this fear. The way in which we practice is by having them flip over and then hang out for a bit. When they are out of air or out of patience, they tap the side of their boat, and I flip them upright while they are still in the boat. We do that once more, and then they do a wet-exit for real (after several reminders on technique). For a large group, this can waste an hour of paddling time, and its worth is questionable to some. However on the most recent trip, there was one person who couldn't swim and was very afraid of the water and tipping over. After the wet exit, she was totally unafraid and had a great time. I would be willing to wager that she would have had much less fun without that practice. The participant's comfort should be a factor on any guided trip. Still, the arguments put forth by Rob and others why actual wet-exit practice is not necessary are good. I think it comes down to the group's time constraints and the outfitter's preference. Since my outfitter stresses safety above all else, wet-exit practice is something we always do. But the Kayak Academy is not really in the business of guiding trips; our business is teaching kayaking in a formal class setting. I mainly teach whitewater, which is my favorite kind of kayaking to teach. Kevin Whilden Your Planet Earth http://www.yourplanetearth.org (206) 788-0281 (ph) (206) 788-0284 (f) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Kevin and All, > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net > [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net]On Behalf Of Kevin Whilden > Sent: Monday, July 31, 2000 6:42 PM <BIG SNIP> > Still, the arguments put forth by Rob and others why actual wet-exit > practice is not necessary are good. I think it comes down to the group's > time constraints and the outfitter's preference. Since my outfitter > stresses safety above all else, wet-exit practice is something we always > do. But the Kayak Academy is not really in the business of guiding trips; > our business is teaching kayaking in a formal class setting. I > mainly teach > whitewater, which is my favorite kind of kayaking to teach. And there's the difference class vs. tour. I just finished my advanced class and those folks practiced rescue after rescue in all kinds of different conditions. I do agree that a tour would be _marginally_ safer with all practicing exits before the trip. And a little safer still if rescues were practiced. We could make the tour even safer if the group all stayed at home and I emailed them pics of pretty paddling locations. <GRIN> How safe is safe enough? That's the question we all need to answer for ourselves. Cheers, -- Rob Cookson "I like a little rebellion now and then. It is like a storm in the Atmosphere." Thomas Jefferson in a letter to Abigail Adams, February 22, 1787. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 7/31/00 12:22:34 PM !!!First Boot!!!, JCMARTIN43_at_aol.com writes: << Any commercial outfitter that knowingly puts first-timers in decked boats on open water without some comprehensive wet exit and group and individual rescue training does not, in my opinion, deserve to be in business. It's an accident waiting to happen, and the company is displaying unconscionable behavior. >> Are you getting back to the licensing/certification thread? IMHO people need several hours of instruction and several sessions of paddling prior to embarking on a "commercial" trip. <<comprehensive wet exit and group and individual rescue training >> This sounds like a subjective statement. What is "comprehensive" ? I would not consider a two hour lesson as "comprehensive." In two hours, you can introduce concepts and have limited practice (if the group is small enough). Further, a participant may be able to demonstrate skills and still not have the stamina to paddle for thirty minutes uninterrupted. Bruce McC WEO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Kevin wrote, "I kind of agree with Jack on this, although my position is a bit more moderate." I thought I was pretty moderate, Kevin, but --- it's an interesting discussion. I don't think I was advocating actual wet exits --- although I'm not against that idea, either --- but at least some explanation of what one should do in the event of a capsize does seem totally appropriate. That was the point I was trying to make --- nothing more. It did not appear that even that was done. We had spotty info --- I'll gladly stand corrected if the guide did provide at least a verbal explanation. Otherwise, I still think he was wrong. Jack *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Jack and All, > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net > [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net]On Behalf Of JCMARTIN43_at_aol.com > Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2000 4:05 PM > > > Kevin wrote, "I kind of agree with Jack on this, although my > position is a bit more moderate." > > I thought I was pretty moderate, Kevin, but --- it's an > interesting discussion. I don't think I was advocating actual > wet exits --- It was unclear to me but I got the impression that you were advocating actual rescue practice before any tour which in my opinion is not needed. I think I stated that I was unclear on your exact position here. although I'm not against that idea, either --- but > at least some explanation of what one should do in the event of a > capsize does seem totally appropriate. I agree with you 100% that a discussion of exiting and rescue is needed at the beginning of any tour. That was the point I was > trying to make --- nothing more. It did not appear that even > that was done. I hope that it was done. It's important. If it was omitted someone needs to get some better guides. We had spotty info --- I'll gladly stand > corrected if the guide did provide at least a verbal explanation. > Otherwise, I still think he was wrong. > It is an interesting discussion though as you have said. I'm curious as to the actual number of fatalities or rescues requiring outside assistance that have occurred on guided trips. Anyone have any real numbers? Cheers, -- Rob Cookson "I like a little rebellion now and then. It is like a storm in the Atmosphere." Thomas Jefferson in a letter to Abigail Adams, February 22, 1787. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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