"In the movie "Perfect Storm," I was surprised to see the Andrea Gail rigged with apparent trawler booms when it was fishing as a longliner. Yes, you can attach a longline reel/drum to any boat, but why carry the useless (and dangerous, in this movie) trawler booms? " Darrell Lee Darrell, good morning and good question I'm not sure about the Andrea Gail, but many of the trawlers in New England are rigged so that they can fish in several fisheries, for example scalloping and shrimping. Many were old shrimp boats converted in the 1970's and 1980's to drag for scallops on the Grand Banks. There has been a lot of controversy over the years as these boats developed. The first Gulf shrimpers were built along the Gulf coast, many by the fishermen themselves along the banks of bayous or creek sides in the south. No plans, no naval architect or engineer. Just an owner with a welding machine and a couple helpers that were either kin folks or local friends. Each boat added the individuals personal thoughts and desires .... i.e. "I want to build a boat 15' longer than my neighbor Boudreaux". None of these boats were 'inspected vessels' ... as they got closer to 100' (the magic measurement where they would have to be inspected), they started moving they houses forward and upward. A command deck was added topside to give them more crew space below. The basic hulls never changed. When used as a longliner, and they still had the outriggers ... they would mount stablizers which were drug from them to attempt to keep the boats from rolling so badly. Under no means were these boats stable ... all the extra weight topside was not compensated for. In addition ... when these boats arrived in New England ... even more steel was added to close in parts of the deck areas because of the severe weather. One series of these boats was built by a ship yard in St. Augustine, Florida, that became quite popular as scallopers during the 1970's. Called the St. Augustine Trawler, these boats were built 'en masse' by a Texas businessman with the idea of taking over the New England scallop market. When this operation went bankrupt ... many of the boats were sold at auction to the local fishermen. There are still quite a few working in New England, especially around Glouchester, New Bedford - Fairhaven, Fall River, and Newport. Capt. Donald R. Reid *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Thanks to all for the interesting discussion. I think Capt. Reid summed it up the best. Apparently some of the Gloucester boats are "evolution" boats saddled with trawler booms and top-heavy with add-on command decks, so unstable that underwater stabilizer wings are utilized (as many of you, including Craig Hicks and Dave Seng, noted). I wasn't previously aware of the need for stabilizer wings/disks on non-trawlers, but the movie clearly showed anchors hanging from the booms, not stabilizer wings, didn't it? I'm familiar with the otter doors used by shrimp/flounder/scallop trawlers. They're used to spread the net and they do "fly" and stabilize, but they're not what hung from the Andrea Gail. I learned that the Grand Banks cod fishery was a gillnet fishery. As I recall, gillnets are typically fed and retrieved from a spool or reel similar to a longline spool/reel, and the stern is usually very low to allow pulling the net on board. The fish are picked from the net as it's reeled in. There was a lot of well-meaning misinformation given out. Gillnets are not trawled. They're hung from floats and either drifted or anchored. The mesh size dictates what they catch. You might use 4" mesh for salmon, and 1/4" mesh for anchovies. As Kirk Olsen noted, there's a lot of potential abuse from gillnets, and lost drift gillnets continue to kill for years. All nets are indiscriminate killers of anything that gets caught in them, including undersize fish, turtles, and dolphins. Trollers use much thinner booms that only need to be strong enough to hold 3 or 4 trolling lines on each side. Trolling booms can't really be mistaken for trawler booms. Salmon, albacore, Dorado, and billfish are common troll-caught fish. Dave Kruger and Gabriel Romeu asked about fishing gear. Trawlers or draggers don't use gear off the stern. They use massive side booms to spread and retrieve a massive net that drags close to the sea bottom. The net may have chains hanging from it to kick shrimp, flounders, and scallops off the bottom into the net. Typically there are flying doors or wings at the outer edges of the net to spread it. Purse seiners work on the principle of surrounding a school of fish and drawing the bottom of the purse tight. Tuna and salmon seiners have a Marco Power Block (a big pulley, centrally located and elevated) to raise the net, and a powerful seine skiff to take the other end of the net out from the boat. Longliners use the hook and bait method shown in the movie Perfect Storm. Halibut, sharks, and Swordfish are longlined. I think most tuna are caught by net or by hook and line, not longlining as Kirk Olsen said. I shared Doug Lloyd's near-tears. The movie was action-packed and emotionally gripping. Time magazine's July 3 edition mentioned the computer-enhanced ocean waves. I have to admit that the 200' swell that capsized the Andrea Gail was hard to stomach, but the visual effect was gripping. Darrell Lee Alameda, CA snorkler_at_juno.com > Darrell, good morning and good question > > I'm not sure about the Andrea Gail, but many of the trawlers > in New England are rigged so that they can fish in several > fisheries, for example scalloping and shrimping. Many were > old shrimp boats converted in the 1970's and 1980's to drag > for scallops on the Grand Banks. > > There has been a lot of controversy over the years as these > boats developed. The first Gulf shrimpers were built along > the Gulf coast, many by the fishermen themselves along the > banks of bayous or creek sides in the south. No plans, no > naval architect or engineer. Just an owner with a welding > machine and a couple helpers that were either kin folks or > local friends. > > Each boat added the individuals personal thoughts and > desires .... i.e. "I want to build a boat 15' longer than my > neighbor Boudreaux". > > None of these boats were 'inspected vessels' ... as they got > closer to 100' (the magic measurement where they would have > to be inspected), they started moving they houses forward > and upward. A command deck was added topside to give them > more crew space below. The basic hulls never changed. > > When used as a longliner, and they still had the outriggers > ... they would mount stablizers which were drug from them to > attempt to keep the boats from rolling so badly. > > Under no means were these boats stable ... all the extra > weight topside was not compensated for. In addition ... > when these boats arrived in New England ... even more steel > was added to close in parts of the deck areas because of the > severe weather. > > One series of these boats was built by a ship yard in St. > Augustine, Florida, that became quite popular as scallopers > during the 1970's. Called the St. Augustine Trawler, these > boats were built 'en masse' by a Texas businessman with the > idea of taking over the New England scallop market. When > this operation went bankrupt ... many of the boats were sold > at auction to the local fishermen. There are still quite a > few working in New England, especially around Glouchester, > New Bedford - Fairhaven, Fall River, and Newport. > > Capt. Donald R. Reid *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
D Lee wrote: > > Thanks to all for the interesting discussion. I think Capt. Reid summed > it up the best. Apparently some of the Gloucester boats are "evolution" > boats saddled with trawler booms and top-heavy with add-on command decks, > so unstable that underwater stabilizer wings are utilized (as many of > you, including Craig Hicks and Dave Seng, noted). I wasn't previously > aware of the need for stabilizer wings/disks on non-trawlers, but the > movie clearly showed anchors hanging from the booms, not stabilizer > wings, didn't it? No, those were not anchors. They were standard stabilizers. They are heavily built so they will sink into the water enough to stabilize the boat. And no, the use of stabilizers is not restricted to "unstable" boats. The stabilizers are used to damp out the roll of the vessel so it is easier to work on (check out Capt. Reid's words, at the end). I can go look at any of a dozen drag boats moored two miles from here, and they will all be equipped with stabilizers. It is probably true that some of the Gloucester boats are slung together with too much steel up top, but even drag boats which are designed specifically (and carefully) for that fishery use the stabilizers. > I learned that the Grand Banks cod fishery was a gillnet fishery. As I > recall, gillnets are typically fed and retrieved from a spool or reel > similar to a longline spool/reel, and the stern is usually very low to > allow pulling the net on board. The fish are picked from the net as it's > reeled in. Some salmon gillnet boats retrieve the net over the bow. > There was a lot of well-meaning misinformation given out. Gillnets are > not trawled. They're hung from floats and either drifted or anchored. > The mesh size dictates what they catch. You might use 4" mesh for > salmon, and 1/4" [sic; more like 1 inch] mesh for anchovies. > As Kirk Olsen noted, there's a lot > of potential abuse from gillnets, and lost drift gillnets continue to > kill for years. All nets are indiscriminate killers of anything that > gets caught in them, including undersize fish, turtles, and dolphins. For a serious look at the issue Darrell raises for groundfishing, check out: http://www.times.org/archives/1999/undersea1.htm Even commercial fishers recognize the impact groundfishing has on habitat. > Trollers use much thinner booms that only need to be strong enough to > hold 3 or 4 trolling lines on each side. Trolling booms can't really be > mistaken for trawler booms. Salmon, albacore, Dorado, and billfish are > common troll-caught fish. True, although high seas trollers have booms that are pretty herky. > Dave Kruger and Gabriel Romeu asked about fishing gear. Trawlers or > draggers don't use gear off the stern. They use massive side booms to > spread and retrieve a massive net that drags close to the sea bottom. Huh? I can go examine any of twenty local draggers and they all retrieve their nets over the stern. I agree some use booms to deploy the net, which would be beam or outrigger trawlers. Here is a section off the Brittanica Web site to clarify this: BEGIN Stern trawlers Practically all trawlers built today are stern trawlers, with the trawl launched and recovered over the stern. The vessels are generally designed with the wheelhouse and superstructure forward, often forming part of the raised forecastle. By contrast, the working deck aft is lower, and, on the larger trawlers a ramp is built into the stern up which the trawl is pulled onto the deck. On smaller stern trawlers the trawl is lifted on board by a hoist. Beam or outrigger trawlers With this type of vessel, two beam trawls are towed from booms extending to each side and supported by a central mast. The booms are very strong, as they take the full weight of the trawl being towed. The mast supporting the booms may be located forward, in which case the wheelhouse is located aft as on a side trawler, or they may be amidships with the wheelhouse forward, as on a stern trawler. The former type is widely used for beam trawling in Europe, while the latter is the pattern of most shrimp trawlers. European-style beam trawlers are the most powerful fishing vessels of their size in the world. END > Capt. Donald R. Reid wrote: > > When used as a longliner, and they still had the outriggers > > ... they would mount stablizers which were drug from them to > > attempt to keep the boats from rolling so badly. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: Dave Kruger > > No, those were not anchors. They were standard stabilizers. They are heavily > built so they will sink into the water enough to stabilize the boat yes, so they say. back in the '70's i was on a Duke U Marine Lab trawler with stablizers. the boat was a gift to the lab (read tax write off). we were out just a bit in coastal North Carolina waters... that boat wasn't worth 2 cents. with the stabilizers down, it rolled excessively and had almost continuous water coming across the deck. on the way back to port, we rename her from the 'deWolf' to the 'De Ralph' i detest boats with stablizers. bye bye bliven *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> No, those were not anchors. They were standard stabilizers. They are heavily > built so they will sink into the water enough to stabilize the boat. And no, > the use of stabilizers is not restricted to "unstable" boats. The Thanks. I'll have to pay better attention the next time I see the movie (on t.v. or video). > > recall, gillnets are typically fed and retrieved from a spool or reel > > similar to a longline spool/reel, and the stern is usually very low to > > allow pulling the net on board. The fish are picked from the net as it's > > reeled in. > > Some salmon gillnet boats retrieve the net over the bow. Fortunately I covered myself with "typically." > Huh? I can go examine any of twenty local draggers and they all retrieve their > nets over the stern. I agree some use booms to deploy the net, which would be > beam or outrigger trawlers. Here is a section off the Brittanica Web site to > clarify this: I stand corrected. My experience has been with Alaska shrimp and scallop and Georgia shrimp trawlers, which have all been outrigger trawlers. I wasn't even aware of stern trawlers until I read your message. Thanks for the education. Darrell Lee Alameda, CA snorkler_at_juno.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Good morning Darrel, > but the movie clearly showed anchors hanging from the booms, not > stabilizer > wings, didn't it? I'm familiar with the otter doors used by > shrimp/flounder/scallop trawlers. They're used to spread > the net and > they do "fly" and stabilize, but they're not what hung > from the Andrea > Gail. I haven't seen the actual movie yet, but I did see the TV documentary about the making of the movie .... I assure you that actually I'd bet my life that the Andrea Gail had stabilizers. Remember this was a film maker 'idea' of what happened. > There was a lot of well-meaning misinformation given out. > Gillnets are > not trawled. They're hung from floats and either drifted > or anchored. > The mesh size dictates what they catch. You might use 4" > mesh for > salmon, and 1/4" mesh for anchovies. As Kirk Olsen noted, > there's a lot > of potential abuse from gillnets, and lost drift gillnets > continue to > kill for years. All nets are indiscriminate killers of > anything that > gets caught in them, including undersize fish, turtles, > and dolphins. Gill-netting is used quite a bit for sword-fishing also, the mesh being much larger. Can still catch dolphins. > Longliners use the hook and bait method shown in the movie > Perfect Storm. > Halibut, sharks, and Swordfish are longlined. I think > most tuna are > caught by net or by hook and line, not longlining as Kirk > Olsen said. > Actually longlining is the most used method for catching tuna and swordfish worldwide. The Japanese and Koreans use lines up to 75 miles in length. Most Americans are less that 35 miles in length. > I have to admit that the 200' swell that > capsized the Andrea Gail was hard to stomach, but the > visual effect was > gripping. I have operated tug boats in average seas of 35' +, and rode out seas of up to 50' .... thank God, I've never seen a 200' wave. I know other captains that claim to have been in 90' seas. But, even in 50' (a true 50' wave) you might well think it was 200' ..... especially in a tug or a fishing vessel ... no fun at all. Capt. Donald R. Reid *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>Good morning Darrel, > > I have to admit that the 200' swell that > > capsized the Andrea Gail was hard to stomach, but the > > visual effect was > > gripping. > >I have operated tug boats in average seas of 35' +, and rode >out >seas of up to 50' .... thank God, I've never seen a 200' >wave. I >know other captains that claim to have been in 90' seas. > >But, even in 50' (a true 50' wave) you might well think it >was >200' ..... especially in a tug or a fishing vessel ... no >fun >at all. > >Capt. Donald R. Reid I wouldn't imagine anyone who's seen a 200' wave from sea level is around to tell the tale. I believe the typical size of the waves mentioned, in the book at least, was 100 feet - half the size, but still more than enough. I saw "The Perfect Storm" movie on Saturday. Judging from my experience "breaking out" through the surf zone in my whitewater boat, the computer animators did a superb job of capturing the dreadful moment when a wave peaks and breaks "too soon", before you can power over the top, the awful, achingly long seconds during which you realise this is happening, and the wild, out-of-control back-surfing that happens before the boat is flipped. In the book, the author mentions that the Coast Guard term for a wave that is too steep and fast for a given boat to power up the face of is "non-negotiable". My kayak surfing buddies and I have adopted this term as very descriptive: "Wow, that wave was totally non-negotiable - it maytagged me completely, and then window-shaded me back to shore!" Philip Torrens N49°16' W123°06' *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I've seen 30 foot waves from the pilot house of a Navy cruiser. That is enough for me. The tactical situation required that we be in the trough, and we were rolling 40 degrees each side. Steve Featherkile > [Original Message] > From: Philip Torrens <skerries_at_hotmail.com> > > I wouldn't imagine anyone who's seen a 200' wave from sea level is around to > tell the tale. I believe the typical size of the waves mentioned, in the > book at least, was 100 feet - half the size, but still more than enough. > > I saw "The Perfect Storm" movie on Saturday. Judging from my experience > "breaking out" through the surf zone in my whitewater boat, the computer > animators did a superb job of capturing the dreadful moment when a wave > peaks and breaks "too soon", before you can power over the top, the awful, > achingly long seconds during which you realise this is happening, and the > wild, out-of-control back-surfing that happens before the boat is flipped. > > In the book, the author mentions that the Coast Guard term for a wave that > is too steep and fast for a given boat to power up the face of is > "non-negotiable". My kayak surfing buddies and I have adopted this term as > very descriptive: "Wow, that wave was totally non-negotiable - it maytagged > me completely, and then window-shaded me back to shore!" > > Philip Torrens > N49°16' W123°06' > > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not > to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission > Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net > Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** --- Steven Featherkile --- madwolf_at_earthlink.net --- EarthLink: It's your Internet. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
--- Philip Torrens <skerries_at_hotmail.com> wrote: -snip- > > My kayak surfing buddies and I have adopted this > term as > very descriptive: "Wow, that wave was totally non-negotiable - it > maytagged > me completely, and then window-shaded me back to shore!" > Yes - rag doll mode. I know it well. ;-) Melissa Get Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
The negotiability of a wave depends in part on its height and period. Goliath rollers spaced far apart without breaking crests are more manageable than steep confused seas in a gale. Of the big sea stories that saltier members are recalling, how long would an expert kayaker survive in such conditions? If only I could make my kayak and body survive diving under the 100' wave like some super duck. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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