Dear PaddleWisers, I just received a request by Tamia Nelson (and have learned I am not the only PaddleWise member to receive such a request from Ms. Nelson) to quote directly from my postings on the PaddleWise list for a follow-up article to her Commando Camping article. Due to past experiences at having been misquoted and quoted out of context, I respectfully declined. However, a notice has been issued by Tamia Nelson that she intends to paraphrase quotes from our discussion and errors could be made in the paraphrasing as a result of not being able to obtain permission for quotes. This article is to be run on her commercial- based paddling website. PaddleWise policy has always been that messages in this forum are not to be forwarded outside the PaddleWise forum without the author's permission in order that subscribers here may engage in frank and open discussion about issues without fear of having their messages misquoted or quoted out of context in another forum. That confidence has been violated by a member here who has forwarded messages from PaddleWise to Ms. Nelson who now intends to use those messages, with or without permission, for a follow-up article. I do not have the power to prevent such violations other than once discovering the violator, to remove them from the list. The adherence to this policy primarily depends on the honor system. So I plead with all subscribers here to please respect your fellow members in this list and respect the policy established to protect open and free exchange on this list. This is *your* community and it's success is determined by the mutual respect and consideration of all its members. Thank you, Jackie list-owner *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Does Ms. Nelson not have enough following on her commercial web site to engender a lively debate from which she can quote directly? It must not have the participation of a sincere bunch of paddlers such as one finds here. Tamia, shame on you. I question your journalistic integrity. Ms. Nelson, why would you utilize "paraphrased" quotes that by your own admittance will not be correct? I shall shun her and her articles! Put a spin on that or quote it (excuse me: miss-paraphrase it.) I hope that this doesn't lesson the participation or dampen a lively debate on Paddlewise. Fred Thomas California Kayaker At 04:46 PM 7/10/2000 -0700, Jackie Fenton wrote: >Dear PaddleWisers, > >"However, a notice has been issued by Tamia Nelson that >she intends to paraphrase quotes from our discussion and errors could >be made in the paraphrasing as a result of not being able to obtain >permission for quotes. This article is to be run on her commercial- >based paddling website." *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Fred wrote: > Tamia, shame on you. I question your journalistic integrity. Ms. Nelson, > why would you utilize "paraphrased" quotes that by your own admittance will > not be correct? I shall shun her and her articles! Put a spin on that > or quote it (excuse me: miss-paraphrase it.) Well, it's not entirely clear from what Jackie said that Ms. Nelson *knows* she will misquote or mis-paraphrase, or intends to do so, only that it *could* happen. I don't know enough about her to make a judgment, so I will withhold judgment until and learn more or see what she does. But I did want to add another thought. I rarely offer any form of "legal advice" in these types of forums, and Jackie please let me know if I should refrain even more. . . but . . . there is some substantial precedent for suing a journalist or author who misquotes someone and changes the meaning of what they said. The claim would sound in defamation. The theory would be that by incorrectly quoting (or, I believe, paraphrasing) someone in a way that mis-represents their statements or ideas, and that thereby "damages" them (hurts their "reputation", if you will), the offending party has in effect made a "false statement" about the person in question. One of the lawyers at my old firm sued a well-known publication (run by a famous person that I am friendly with, sadly) and won on this theory. So. . . journalists beware. Now, the above is not legal advice and should not be relied on. Consult an attorney in your own jurisdiction. Mileage may vary. <g> Mark *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Tue, Jul 11, 2000 at 01:45:30AM -0400, Sailboat Restorations, Inc. wrote: > Well, it's not entirely clear from what Jackie said that Ms. Nelson *knows* > she will misquote or mis-paraphrase, or intends to do so, only that it > *could* happen. I don't know enough about her to make a judgment, so I will > withhold judgment until and learn more or see what she does. I don't think that's the point. The point is that Jackie has a policy to which everyone subscribed to this mailing list has agreed. (Those who do not agree are free to unusbscribe at any time.) It is therefore incumbent upon them to uphold that agreement *whether or not they happen to think it's a sound policy or a good policy or a bad policy or a silly policy*. And, I would argue, long-standing principles of netiquette would strongly indicate that even if one is in receipt of the information second-hand, that one should subject oneself to the lists' restrictions on its use. This is a simple matter of honoring the wishes of the person(s) who have caused the forum (mailing list, newsgroups, etc.) to exist and of honoring the intent of the author -- who, having submitted it to such a forum, has certain expectations on when and where and how it will be republished. ---Rsk Rich Kulawiec rsk_at_gsp.org *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Fred wrote, "I hope that this doesn't lesson the participation or dampen a lively debate on Paddlewise." Somehow, Fred, I think it's going to take a lot more than the arrogance and dishonesty of one member and the theft of the intellectual property of PaddleWise by a web pirate to slow this thing down. The value generated on this list could never be diminished by the personal interests of an ethief and her accomplice. Jack Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Jackie and PaddleWisers, > I just received a request by Tamia Nelson (and have learned I am not > the only PaddleWise member to receive such a request from Ms. Nelson) > to quote directly from my postings on the PaddleWise list for a follow-up > article to her Commando Camping article. Due to past experiences at > having been misquoted and quoted out of context, I respectfully > declined. However, a notice has been issued by Tamia Nelson that > she intends to paraphrase quotes from our discussion May we see a copy of this notice? Am I to understand, then, that this Nelson woman considers it her legal right to quote anything I might write on this list? By what legal right does she do this? > and errors could > be made in the paraphrasing as a result of not being able to obtain > permission for quotes. This article is to be run on her commercial- > based paddling website. > > PaddleWise policy has always been that messages in this forum are not > to be forwarded outside the PaddleWise forum without the author's > permission in order that subscribers here may engage in frank and open > discussion about issues without fear of having their messages misquoted > or quoted out of context in another forum. That confidence has been > violated by a member here who has forwarded messages from PaddleWise > to Ms. Nelson who now intends to use those messages, with or without > permission, for a follow-up article. Jackie, are you *sure* that there is a "traitor" amongst us? If you *know* unequivocally and absolutely who this person is, then perhaps it would be fitting for you to publish their name. And then throw them out! You know, when I first read that "Commando Camping" post from "Kasia" with a Hotmail account, whom I'd never seen before, my first thought was that it was a blatant troll. I was angry, and even wrote a blistering response, but wisely refrained from posting it until I caught up on my reading and found out what I might actually be stepping in. For a number of reasons, not least of which was that my post might have been misconstrued to have been indirectly attacking our good friend Ralph Diaz, I tossed my angry response in the garbage. I try not to go looking for trouble. :-) I thought it might be better to let it die on it's own, rather than fuel the fires, *especially* if it was a troll. Although, I had that "troll" business covered when I explained *why* I was troubling myself to respond to "Kasia" even though suspecting it was a troll with some hidden agenda. Has anyone heard from "Kasia" lately? Jackie, do you suppose that "Kasia" was in fact this Nelson woman in disguise seeking to provoke the very responses she now declares she's going to "paraphrase?" Folks, what do you think? If this is true, and if it could be *shown to be true*, (network gurus and lawyers it's time to step in here) we might have some very useful evidence to use against this Nelson woman and put a stop to this unethical invasion of our private group and misappropriation of our words. > I do not have the power to prevent such violations other than once > discovering the violator, to remove them from the list. The adherence > to this policy primarily depends on the honor system. So I plead with > all subscribers here to please respect your fellow members in this list > and respect the policy established to protect open and free exchange on > this list. This is *your* community and it's success is determined by > the mutual respect and consideration of all its members. > > Thank you, > > Jackie Yes, it is our community and we need to take care of it as vigorously and vigilantly as you have striven to do, Jackie. I say that it is *no accident* that this community is as agreeable as it is --- someone *worked* to make it that way. That someone is Jackie Fenton, our list owner. The older I get, the more firmly convinced I am that, basically, humans do not work and play well together when left to their own devices. (They *shoot* at one another these days on their daily commutes, for heaven's sake...!) That PaddleWise has been, and continues to be, so successful is attributable to the efforts of Jackie Fenton. Thank you, Jackie. Folks, I don't speak up much here, because I have so much more to learn than to teach, and so I read quietly and appreciatively, grateful for the opportunity to be a member of this wonderful list. You folks on PaddleWise are the best --- you've taught me a ton and entertained me to boot. And you've done it with expertise, humor, grace, and a spirit of teamwork and community that is unsurpassed. And I thank you, one and all. :-) We need to defend our community against the depredations of the likes of this Nelson woman, bereft of ethics as she would appear to be. We need to take care of this list for ourselves and for Jackie. Best Regards to All, Bruce (who feels better now :-) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Protect Our Rights Actively Not Passively: Thank you Bruce for so pointedly telling it like it is. I have learned far more than I have contributed or for that matter am qualified to contribute to Paddlewise. I join Bruce in encouraging those participating in Paddlewise to band together in support of the list and Jackie. Please tell us what "commercial" venue this purveyor of journalistic hype contributes to. The one dollar one vote theory of the free market will allow us to register our displeasure of this type of conduct to the enlightened self interest of the organization she panders to. I can't help but believe that they will choose their pocket book over their paraphrasing reporter. Fred >We need to defend our community against the depredations of the >likes of this Nelson woman, bereft of ethics as she would appear >to be. We need to take care of this list for ourselves and for >Jackie. > >Best Regards to All, > >Bruce (who feels better now :-) > > > > >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not >to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission >Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net >Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net >Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ >*************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> From: "M. Lenon" <lenonm_at_milwaukee.tec.wi.us> <snip> > May we see a copy of this notice? Am I to understand, then, that > this Nelson woman considers it her legal right to quote anything > I might write on this list? By what legal right does she do this? Hi Bruce, Actually, if I forwarded Ms. Nelson's notice then I would pretty much be climbing into the same boat as the individual that violated policy here. As far as I know, Ms. Nelson has not posted her article. Maybe she has re-considered and decided it would not be in the best interest of the paddling community. > You know, when I first read that "Commando Camping" post from > "Kasia" with a Hotmail account, whom I'd never seen before, my > first thought was that it was a blatant troll. Actually, I think Kasia was sincere and I don't believe she has anything to do with Ms. Nelson. I truly don't. > Folks, I don't speak up much here, because I have so much more to > learn than to teach, and so I read quietly and appreciatively, > grateful for the opportunity to be a member of this wonderful > list. You folks on PaddleWise are the best --- you've taught me a > ton and entertained me to boot. 'Tis so true. Hard not to feel that way about the folks, here :-) > Bruce (who feels better now :-) That's what we're here for :-) I understand your frustration about having messages here forwarded to Tamia Nelson. I was pretty frustrated myself when I first learned that that violation of our list policy could result in our PaddleWise messages being paraphrased in another forum. I do believe, however, that it was a rare occurrence and agree with what Jack said.. it takes a lot more than someone's rude behavior to slow this list down (paraphrasing :-). Thanks for your support, Bruce. Cheers, Jackie list-owner *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
ralph diaz <rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com> wrote (the note that started the commando camping thread): Subject: [Paddlewise] Sea Kayakers Behavior I got this heads-up from a fellow PaddleWiser: - ------------- Hey, Ralph -- did you see this? http://www.paddling.net/sameboat/ - ------------- >>Basically it is an article made up of two parts. The first part is of boorish behavior by a bunch of kayakers who pull up on to a dock on a private island in broad daylight and then proceed to defecate, pee, crawl all over the place. The second part has to do with the Commando Camping section of the Camping section of my book in which I go through the necessity of sometimes having to commando camp (I believe, BTW, that I coined the phrase...not the practice as I know kayakers and long range bicyclists have done this for just about forever) and suggesting ways of doing so that are non-disruptive to the property and privacy of the location.<< <SNIP> The column Ralph is referring to was written by none other than Tamia Nelson. Somebody apparently finked on Tamia's article to Ralph by sending him the URL to look at it (or maybe they even quoted it--I don't know). Ralph then paraphrased the article for us on paddlewise. I don't see anything wrong with this. Does anybody? Apparently someone sent Ms. Nelson what has been written on paddlewise in response to Ralph (or tipped her off to look in the archives, if this is possible--I don't know enough about them to know). If that person sent it to Ms. Nelson directly this is in violation of the list policy and copyright statement. I know this could have been done quite innocently by someone new to this list or someone who wasn't familiar with (or forgot) the paddlewise policy. I was in that situation once myself when I gave the editor of Sea Kayaker a heads up and quoted a few postings for an example of being said about them regarding Doug's Storm Island story. The thought of the copyright policy never crossed my mind until I got my knuckles rapped by mom for it. If some one on this list tipped off Ms. Nelson (in a way that violated list policy or not) I invite them to come forward and explain how it happened, at least to Jackie. I'm sure if it is a first offense Jackie will show leniency, as she did with me. So far I don't see anything Ms. Nelson herself has done wrong. My understanding is she asked the posters that she wanted to quote for their permission to do so (much like asking a landowner for permission to camp). The posters were free to give or withhold their permission and Ms. Nelson appeared willing to abide by that. The fact that she may need to paraphrase the posters was not be her first choice but seems a reasonable way to write the story if permission to quote is not given (even if Ralph had not paraphrased her article in the first place--starting this whole thread). Did Ralph ask her permission to do so? Did he need to? I don't think so. I for one think we should commend Ms. Nelson for asking permission. That seems to be in line with list policy. I don't know but I assume she didn't entice a paddlewise member to get her the info. Maybe she is already a lurker on this list? >From what I've seen she hasn't done anything that merits the pillorying she has been getting here. BTW I have no idea who Ms. Nelson is and had to run her name through a lot of search engines to find her paddling site since Jackie and none of the other posters on this subject said what it was (except the original one--and that wasn't easy for me to later find in the digests--due to the subject name change--after reading Ms. Nelson's original story and being reminded by it how this thread first got started). I may not know the whole story here but right now it looks to me like humans have this tendency to identify and burn witches. We like to think that witch burning is in the distant past but right now we have a war on drug users in this country that smells a lot like burning flesh to me. A lot of modern day drug witches are serving long sentences and seriously overcrowding the jails (and more serious criminals are going unpunished for lack of room--including one very serious kayak thief). It appears we humans need to blame and punish someone who scares us by what they choose to eat. That's it! I just discovered to solution to overcrowding on beaches and campsites. You guessed it, we pass a law against kayaking, after all we've already read how it can lead to stronger life threatening stuff like surfing and going out during dangerous storms. Kayaking has also been shown to lead directly to serious crimes, like first degree trespassing. I say we nip this scourge in the bud and make the sale, possession and use of kayaks absolutely verboten. We already have incontrovertible evidence that many kayak users are seriously addicted. They are known to suffer agonizing withdrawal symptoms when they can't get their weekly fix. Many readily admit this is the case, just read the paddlewise bulletin board. If somebody you know tries to turn you on to kayaking even just once "Just say NO!" Don't let them pressure you into kayaking even one time. Once is enough to get you hooked and seal your fate, sending you down that slippery kelp covered slope into degradation and poverty. You'll go from renting kayaks more and more often until you admit you are helpless in the face of this addiction and spend thousands of dollars on your own kit. But it doesn't stop there, many user can't stop with just one kayak but keep buying more and more even more expensive kayaks. Their poor wives and husbands may plead with them that they can't afford it and need the money for basic necessities like food and remodeling the bathroom. Who knows what these addicts may do to get the money, we already know about their willingness to break the law and violate others property rights. I say the death penalty is too easy on them and doesn't provide a deterrent to somebody who already shows a reckless disregard for their own life and the property of others. I say we need to bring back the family values from the past like hand amputation and public torture to ensure that they can never paddle again and that others aren't tempted to follow in their paddle strokes. "A Paddling to End All Paddling" will be our motto. Matt Broze (self-appointed "kayak czar" in the future war on kayaking--as soon as, with the Lord's help, I can kick the kayak habit and become an ex-kayak dealer). http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Let's see of I can shed more light on this. What follows is longish but there are some lessons and food for thought in it, I believe: As Matt noted from my original posting to Paddlewise. I was given a heads up by someone to a public commercial website in which something I wrote was at issue. I went over to read Tamia Nelson's article. My first reaction was to respond within that commercial site's own forum. But when I looked at it, there were only two responses regarding that article. One by a fellow named Hutch saying any one who commando camps is a scumbag. The other a response by Tamia herself agreeing with his statement but saying she couldn't politely use that term. I looked over other topics and responses and decided I would go into that forum with any message by me; I wrote off the forum as innane and unsophisticated; if you visit it, I believe most of you would too judging by the level of discussion you all engender on PaddleWise. But I did think that the issue of commando camping should get a good airing pro and con and what better way than PaddleWise where discussions are fuller, not one-liners, sophisticated and insightful. I knew a lot of people would disagree with my view on commando camping but I also knew the disagreements would be useful not silly or off-the-wall or insulting. I learned a lot from them as I always do on PaddleWise. I therefore wrote the following to PaddleWise quoted by Matt, which gave the URL where people could see the original article (although not the chapter in my book which goes into a lot of things not covered). And I included what I would term a synopsis of the article not a paraphrase. I did no quoting and I did no paraphrasing of what Tamia Nelson said. Maybe I am being picky but paraphrasing involves what someone has said whereas a synopsis is just a straight forward description of contents, which is what I think I did. By directing people to the URL I was letting them read the original and not rely on any paraphrasing of statements. Matt Broze wrote: > > ralph diaz <rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com> wrote (the note that started the commando > camping thread): > > Subject: [Paddlewise] Sea Kayakers Behavior > > I got this heads-up from a fellow PaddleWiser: > > - ------------- > Hey, Ralph -- did you see this? > > http://www.paddling.net/sameboat/ > - ------------- > > >>Basically it is an article made up of two parts. The first part is of > boorish behavior by a bunch of kayakers who pull up on to a dock on a > private island in broad daylight and then proceed to defecate, pee, > crawl all over the place. The second part has to do with the Commando > Camping section of the Camping section of my book in which I go through > the necessity of sometimes having to commando camp (I believe, BTW, that > I coined the phrase...not the practice as I know kayakers and long range > bicyclists have done this for just about forever) and suggesting ways of > doing so that are non-disruptive to the property and privacy of the > location.<< > <SNIP> (The SNIPPED part was: The author of the article takes me to task for what I wrote. While like any good author she does pitch her quotes from my book to prove her point, they are not out of context although parts are left out that have more provisos than I guess she could get into her column.) > So far I don't see anything Ms. Nelson herself has done wrong. My > understanding is she asked the posters that she wanted to quote for their > permission to do so (much like asking a landowner for permission to camp). > The posters were free to give or withhold their permission and Ms. Nelson > appeared willing to abide by that. I was one of the posters asked. I said I could not give permission unless I knew the context in which she planned to use quotes. Although I didn't ask, I also wanted to know from which of my message contents she wished to quote. I wrote a lot on the issue in PaddleWise over the past week and was evolving in my own position as I read the thoughtful messages in PaddleWise, and so it would be important to know which selections of quotes from me. She wrote back saying that she had no intention of submitting future articles to me for my approval (I was not asking for any such approval just for an idea of the context in which she would use my quotes; this is something that anyone being asked for permission to have their stuff quoted has a right to ask) and then added that not quoting would mean she would have to rely on paraphrasing with all the problems and possibilities for error this entails. Basically, I felt I was being told that if I don't give my permission for attributed quotes from my PaddleWise messages, that errors would possibly creep in and they would be my fault for not giving permission! > the posters was not be her first choice but seems a reasonable way to write > the story if permission to quote is not given (even if Ralph had not > paraphrased her article in the first place--starting this whole thread). Did > Ralph ask her permission to do so? Did he need to? I don't think so. I for > one think we should commend Ms. Nelson for asking permission. That seems to > be in line with list policy. Again I did not paraphrase her statements, I just outlined the contents of the article. Besides, it is a public, non-subscription forum _not_ like what PaddleWise is. I wrote just enough to let the PaddleWise reader know its general contents and where they could read the full text. BTW, Matt, I am not arguing with you just clarifying the situation a bit. Tamia Nelson actually had other choices or options in writing her followup article which she did not try. It is to do what I do if I am thinking of writing about something I find on the Net. I treat the message just as a lead. I contact the individual and say I want to write something (giving the publication and context) and want to interview them afresh about what was said rather than work with just the original message. I do this via the phone or email. I ask my questions and get my answers. I take nothing of the original post unless that is what the person wishes to convey to me. If the person says, no, not interested in having anything in an article or even being interviewed afresh with questions, I don't then switch to paraphrase mode. I drop the issue entirely and pursue it no further. This is Responsible Journalism 101 when working from something someone has said. If Tamia Nelson had wanted to interview me for fresh quotes to questions she would have asked, I would have been happy to oblige. In that way I would have seen her direction in the questions and either answered or not answered individual ones; and there would have been some give and take. My wife (who I met when she was in journalism grad school with of all people Pat Buchanan!) suggested that I offer Tamia Nelson that interview possibility but by that time Tamia Nelson emailed me saying that she didn't think we had anything more to discuss. With that kiss-off it didn't seem opportune to pursue the subject further with her. As you can see, lots of food for thought. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 00:07:37 -0700 (PDT) > From: Jackie Fenton <jackie_at_intelenet.net> > Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Policy Intended To Protect PaddleWise Members From Misquotings > > > From: "M. Lenon" <lenonm_at_milwaukee.tec.wi.us> > > <snip> > > > May we see a copy of this notice? Am I to understand, then, that > > this Nelson woman considers it her legal right to quote anything > > I might write on this list? By what legal right does she do this? > > > Hi Bruce, > > Actually, if I forwarded Ms. Nelson's notice then I would pretty much be > climbing into the same boat as the individual that violated policy here. Well... I believe your motives to be good, and I respect them. :-) I'm not suggesting you're wrong, but I would argue that if Ms. Nelson's "notice" directly affects *me*, that if she has announced to you that she intends to use *my* words (in effect, along with every other member's words, too) without my permission and only with this "notice" to *you*, then perhaps her "notice" to you is also effectively a notice to *me*, and I am, therefore, entitled to see it. And address it. (How am I doin' here, Mark? Am I at least in the ballpark? I'm not seeking legal advice, of course! I'll consult my own lawyer in my own jurisdiction for that! See? I've been paying attention. :-) Now, if it was her stated intent to use *your* words, Jackie, against your will, and *only your words*, then I could understand your reluctance to share this "notice." But, you say she intends to "paraphrase," perhaps liberally, from the entire body of messages in PaddleWise. That includes *me*. That disturbs me. Her conduct is, in my view, unethical. I would further add that people who are guilty of such behavior have *forfeited* any number of considerations that would otherwise have been accorded them. I mark a distinction between good and evil behavior, and how I deal with the people involved. I do NOT treat them equally. That's *me*, however, and I'm not suggesting that other folks are obliged to adopt the same views. Perhaps this is just an unfortunate misunderstanding, one that Ms. Nelson would like to correct? Maybe it would help, Jackie, if you could tell me who this Tamia Nelson is. What is the address of her website? Do I understand correctly that she wrote an article on camping? Is this article available on the web? After all, I did just sort of "rise to the bait," objecting on principal, without having read a word of anything Ms. Nelson has written. I don't mean to suggest that had she written something I agreed with that I'd subsequently agree with her unauthorized "paraphrasing" from PaddleWise email, rather, I'm just looking for a way to perhaps mediate this problem and come to a happy conclusion if at all possible. I'll take "nice" over "ugly" any day, and I'm always willing to yield and compromise --- *where possible*. :-) Maybe I need to back up a bit. Can you point me in the right direction? :-) > As far as I know, Ms. Nelson has not posted her article. Maybe she has > re-considered and decided it would not be in the best interest of the > paddling community. [heh, heh] No comment... > > You know, when I first read that "Commando Camping" post from > > "Kasia" with a Hotmail account, whom I'd never seen before, my > > first thought was that it was a blatant troll. > > Actually, I think Kasia was sincere and I don't believe she has > anything to do with Ms. Nelson. I truly don't. Hmmm... This sounds as though you may have had a private exchange with "Kasia." Why else would you be so sure? Don't answer that, Jackie. It's not a question. :-) That would fit nicely into my mystery puzzle. It's just what I'd expect "Kasia," a.k.a. Tamia, to do. "Gee," Tamia a.k.a. "Kasia" might write in a hurt tone, "and here I'd heard what a nice bunch the PaddleWisers were. I didn't mean anything. I guess I'll just mosey along now." Deflect suspicion. And disappear. The person who wrote the "Kasia" post is no dumbie. I gotta hand it to her --- she's slick. Just maybe a bit too good a writer, though, you know? Like a pro, maybe. In my limited experience, it's unusual for someone so literate, so well-spoken, to write such an ill-bred, ill-mannered, low-life, provocative email to a new group, exhibiting such blatant disregard for the rights of others. Very odd. Yes, I know about the rich. But, they don't mingle with the Great Unwashed writing provocative emails, do they? :-) Yo! Tamia! Next time throw in some spelling and grammatical errors! Hubris! It'll get 'em every time. :-) Okay then. You're a "good egg," Jackie, as my Marie would say, and I'd never fault you for that. But, call me Suspicious... I'd still like to see a trace run on that hotmail account to see where it leads. Just to satisfy my "curiosity." :-) Did "Kasia" post more than ONE message? Given the clearly highly opinionated and provocative nature of "Kasia's" original post, specifically requesting feedback on this particular issue of "Commando Camping," and as one who goes out of her way to paddle over to "NO TRESPASSING" signs to have her defiant photo taken, it seems passing strange that she had no retort to the harsh words directed her way. This doesn't ring true. The "Kasia," if she's real, who wrote the "Commando Camping" solicitation would have been in-your-face, combative, argumentative, and ready to pursue it 'till hell froze over. Her post was DELIBERATELY PROVOCATIVE. I suggest that "Kasia's" post would have been extreme for even Rec.Boats.Paddle. (They've got a good core group over there, people with their heads screwed on straight. They're responsible paddlers who do a good job of herding the riff-raff that jumps into their group. I like 'em.) Furthermore, that post was not one of a neophyte. The person who wrote that was an experienced newsgroup writer. It was very carefully crafted (and extraordinarily well-written, I might add, which in itself is quite unusual), very artfully manipulative, angering the reader, and designed, I suggest, to elicit the very sort of quotes that Ms. Tamia Nelson would want. It had "punch." It was no shrinking wallflower who wrote that post. It was not someone who'd run away at the first sign of criticism. There aren't many people who'd post something as provocative as what "Kasia" did. Not real people. And those who *would*?! Why, they'd stay to enjoy the fight, of course. It's what they *came* for! No. This doesn't make sense to me. Is "Kasia" real? I looked up kasia_pierzga_at_hotmail.com in Deja. My search turned up nothing. No messages. That's odd. Whoever wrote that "Kasia" message wasn't writing their first-ever newsgroup message; it was written by an experienced newsgroup writer. Is it plausible that her writing has been confined to nothing but listservers which might not be on Deja? Just changed her account name, maybe? Maybe. Maybe just another coincidence... Maybe Deja's not working right now. Perhaps someone else more experienced with these things could look for "Kasia." Now, all the while this is taking place on PW, Ms. Nelson just coincidentally happens to be writing a follow-up article to an original piece on "Commando Camping." And Ms. Nelson is in need, apparently, of useful "quotes," enough in need that she's willing to defiantly "take" them regardless of being denied permission. Hmmm... that sounds familiar. Ms. Nelson asks for permission to use quotes from the PW discussion (generated ever so conveniently by "Kasia") immediately after a good many "juicy quotes" have been written! What remarkable timing! What an amazing coincidence! Not only does a discussion "suddenly" spring up on PW about the very subject Ms. Nelson needs quotes for, but (wonder of wonders!) an INFORMANT "leaks" quotes to her. Just when she needs them. Extraordinary! What remarkable good fortune for Ms. Tamia Nelson! Boy! Some days things just really go your way, don't they?! Folks, I don't believe it. If I've made a muddle of things here, I'd be grateful if someone would straighten me out. Heaven knows it wouldn't be the first time I'd completely misjudged events... :-) Perhaps Ms. Tamia Nelson would like to straighten me out? You ARE reading this, aren't you, Ms. Nelson? Do come forward and set me straight, won't you, please? Oh, and lest I forget, MS. TAMIA NELSON, you are hereby expressly denied the use of my words in any form whatsoever for any use whatsoever. Right then. Enough of that. <snip> > Thanks for your support, Bruce. You're most welcome, Jackie. You've *earned* it for the Quality List you have created and nurtured. :-) Best Regards, Bruce *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Just two notes to contribute to the discussion: 1. On the lists that I run, I have instituted a policy which I believe to be consistent with the Berne Convention's copyright provisions. To wit, each poster retains the copyright on their own messages, but I, as the list-owner/manager, retain the copyright on the compilation. This (a) allows each participant in the list to grant permission for the republication of their own messages (b) prevents a participant from republishing another participant's messages and (c) prevents a third party from snarfing the entire archive and republishing it. (As an aside, I've been very disappointed to discover how often my work, whether compilation or FAQ or whatnot, has been republished without my name on it. I've been involved in one dispute -- over a FAQ I've maintained for roughly a decade and which was heavily plagiarized -- for two years.) 2. I've had the following taped to my monitor wherever I've been for over fifteen years now, ever since I first became aware of it: Never say anything in an electronic message that you wouldn't want appearing, and attributed to you, in tomorrow morning's front-page headline in the New York Times. - Colonel David Russell, former head of DARPA's Information Processing Techniques Office Given the ubiquitous nature of the web, the pervasiveness of search engines, and the growing number of archive sites out there, this is probably better advice than ever. ---Rsk Rich Kulawiec rsk_at_gsp.org *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Arrrrggg....and if the guilty party(s) will but stand before the Cap'ns Mast we be havin' a keel-haul eftsoons we round up 'nuff rope ! What say ye, mateys ? ...adieu ...Peyton (Louisiana) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> From: "M. Lenon" <lenonm_at_milwaukee.tec.wi.us> <Big huge snip> > > Thanks for your support, Bruce. > > You're most welcome, Jackie. You've *earned* it for the Quality List > you have created and nurtured. :-) > > Best Regards, > > Bruce Well, anyone reading that _now_ would assume it was tongue-in-cheek. I'm *very* annoyed right now. The support I need is not long paranoid posts jumping to conclusions and filled with unfounded accusations on a member here because they posted something you did not agree with. That's not what PaddleWise is about. Not now, not ever. No one here has done anything to deserve the level of venom spewed in this list in the last few hours. I agree with David Seng, not sure what you got so lathered about but it's going to stop. Now. I was too polite, before. Folks, please bear with me while we try to get some kind of control back on a list that's just gone nuts. If you don't see your posts appear, please don't take it personal. Also, it will take some time as right now the list is fully moderated thanks to the outrageous abuses of our list. sheeeesh... Jackie listowner *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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