Bruce posted: Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 06:38:19 EDT From: Outfit3029_at_aol.com Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Safety and "Canoe & Kayak" Magazine In a message dated 9/7/00 6:17:07 AM !!!First Boot!!!, Strosaker_at_aol.com writes: << I think that like me, his tone is sometimes misinterpreted on this list. >> Mr. Duane, always the voice of reason. Bruce McC WEO And I too apologize to Scott of So Cal. It was only after reading some more unopened PW digests that it became apparent to me that Scott represented an ongoing "different" voice in the PFD debate. My "bloody idiot" post must have seemed like a pointed jab directly at him, which it wasn't. In fact, Scott brings up some good points in the PFD debate, including the fact that often paddlers think they are safer for wearing a PFD, when intrinsically, that is not the case. There are also times when not wearing one isn't a great sin, but it all comes down to personal judgment. And I believe that is what Scott is advocating for. It is much easier in Canada, as Uliei (spelling, sorry) pointed out. We don't have to wear them, just have them available. I often take mine off on a calm, hot day, and have set up extra recessed deck fittings to hold the PFD in place, where I can reach it pronto when needed. On group trips with a small number of experienced open coast paddlers, we have often pulled up beside each other and made a group decision to remove PFD's when conditions warrant it on the smooth, glassy swell. While one should have the freedom to make one's own mind up, the group decision policy is a better way, fostering communication, compliance with a general safety attitudes, and gives opportunity for hesitant egos to bounce ideas off the group. As far as kayak surfers, it would be interesting to see what would happen if a ticket-issuing officer were to be at the beach where all the kayak surfers were congregated. Would the obsequious individual issue citations for the whole lot. Anyway, I've back channeled with some folks in question on the PFD issue, and all is well. Thanks Duane; I too enjoy your voice of reason and your other talents displayed on PW this past year. Keeps me going on this list. One thing folks might want to keep in mind is that even simple outings can turn awry. An incident happened to me a few years ago that was very scary. It happened to a fellow Paddlewiser recently too, who e-mailed me privately with his personal embarrassment. It involves involuntary benign vertigo, with the onset usually coming from a slight feeling of "unwellness", combined with a lot of multi-directional boat wake. I'll use John Winters as an example to illustrate the phenomenon. One usually leaves the beach feeling fairly well, but may have had something to eat or drink that was supplementary to the normal regime. In John's scenario here, perhaps it was a bit too much wine before dinner, followed by re-heated, leftover pizza with anchovies. He heads out for a small, romantic evening paddle with his wife. Unknown to John, a major fishing derby is just closing down, and returning fisherman zoom down the channel to the marina, anxious to record their weigh-ins. Boat wake, clapotis, and a generally confused sea state leave the kayak rocking wildly (ralph may know what this is like from the area he paddles in, all the time). John, who imbibed much more wine than his wife to summon up creative juices for a recent PW post, starts to feel a bit green. It is not long before he is feeling completely useless, unable to paddle, and having to hunker down, deep in the cockpit. A sheepish plea for help goes out to his wife, who has to tow John ignobly home. Now, in my little story above, I changed the names and the causative reasons, but the outcome was similar to what actually transpired for my friend. But what if John had unfettered himself from restriction of PFD usage for philosophical reasons, and actually not worn one. What if he had capsized and actually become a very big burden for his wife. In the real incident with my friend, a PFD was worn, and there were other paddlers along to help. In my incident a few years back, I was at the mercy of my narrow Nordkapp. That was one of the reasons I started to carry a Sea Seat in the back of my PFD, so I could have a source of stability if I needed it. I also have acquired a Back Up device recently, but hate to mention theses devices, as they become the butt of so many jokes from the eastern part of Canada :-) Well, I've enjoyed the PFD debate -- anything but bland, though I'm sure many have deleted. I will continue to wear mine most of the time, will continue to try and be part of a responsibly equipped boating public, and unfortunately, will not feel too terribly bad watching the RCMP cite individuals headed out without proper compliance as soon as the legislation is in place for the local law enforcement. In a relatively free society, I have a right to my opinion and views too. I know Americans in particular value their essential liberties, and I respect the core arguments against mandated PFD usage. I do however, find the statement "Give me liberty, or give me death", especially suitable to the PFD debate :-) I also think it is far too easy for individuals to sit back in their Ivory Towers (or at least behind their computer towers) and rant away about freedom from puritanical government legislation. Of course, it is also easy to pluck away at the keyboard pontificating about safety and doing so with a smug, moralizing attitude. PFD Pros: Helps keep the in-water person buoyant Provides insulation in colder climes Provides a place for emergency and convenience items Can lend visibility Further attachment point for knife and strobe Integrated tow system capable Provided a protective cushion from torso injury Sets a good example Maintains local compliance with regulations Provides tender hearts with a "security blanket" Can make you more buoyant for reboarding Gives other paddlers a place to grab you to pull you up Makes sculling easier Makes a good head rest (I never sit on mine) Looks "cool" If separated from boat, may contain emerg gear PFD Cons: Can make one overheat Cost Can add to chafing Bunches up your paddling jacket Can be hard to get one to fit correctly Can get snagged on a deck fixture on exit Can make rolling back up difficult in shallows One more item to leave at beach May create a false sense of security Will impede rapid swimming Can snag on coaming during reentry Can make re-entry and roll difficult Can make it harder to secure spray deck BC'in Ya Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug Lloyd wrote: > It is much easier in Canada, as Uliei (spelling, sorry) pointed out. We > don't have to wear them, just have them available. We don't _have_ to wear them in the States either. While the US Coast Guard goes through great pains in its annual reports to stress that it is smart to wear one all the time, there is no regulation that says you have to. A case in point. A few years two kayakers were paddling off the Upper West Side of Manhattan on the Hudson. A USCG small patrol boat pulled over to them and one of the Coasties insisted that one fellow actually put on his PFD. About a month later one of the fellows (the one with the PFD already on) and I were visiting the Coast Guard Station on some other matter and related the incident to the lieutenant in charge of enforcement. He went almost ballistic wanting us to give him the date, time and place so that he could reprimand that crew! He apologized to us for their action even though we weren't the affected party. They had exceeded their authority, i.e. the reg says only you need to have your PFD handy, nothing more. We didn't recall the precise time and even if we had we didn't feel like getting some young Coasties in trouble. The lieutenant said he would post a notice about the incident in a general way as a general reminder to the crews on what the regs actually require. In the dead of winter, we have had some of kayakers pulled over by USCG crews asking if they were wearing wet suits. I suppose if the kayakers hadn't been cold-water clothed in some fashion, the crew could force them to leave the water because the paddler was "operating a boat in an unsafe manner" a kind of blanket or umbrella authority covering lots of things. But wearing a PFD is such a specifically spelled out reg (i.e. you need one handy but are not required to have it on) that they could not force you off the water on that umbrella authority on account of not wearing one. In a similar vein on the cold-water theme, a few years ago, there was a mid-winter paddling trip put on for a morning TV news show. The fellows left from Governors Island (that lets you know how long ago this was; it closed in 1996) into real cold air temperatures (single digit) and high winds. The Coast Guard hovered nearby in a patrol boat. At one point, one of the paddlers capsized. He was immediately rescued by the other kayakers but the Coast Guard felt enough was enough and, citing the bad conditions, ordered them all off the water and to return to the put-in. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> We don't _have_ to wear them in the States either. While the US Coast > Guard goes through great pains in its annual reports to stress that it > is smart to wear one all the time, there is no regulation that says you > have to. I believe some states do have such a regulation (in fact I believe Connecticut may be one of them, but I'm not certain). It may not be in the federal regs, but federal law is not the only law in the US. Mark *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug wrote: > > I'll use John Winters as an example (SNIP) Doug, you should not have used me as an example. It destroyed your credibility. :-) Besides, I don't like anchovies on my pizza. Cheers, John Winters Web site address http://home.ican.net/~735769. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 9/9/00 4:22:52 PM !!!First Boot!!!, sailboatrestorations_at_worldnet.att.net writes: << It may not be in the federal regs, but federal law is not the only law in the US. >> If these laws are like DOT Regulations, local laws take precedent providing that they are not less stringent than Federal. Is that correct? With respect to having PFD's "handy," "handy" would have to be within reach. This would exclude stowing PFD's in a closed hatch area? Bruce McC www.wholeearthoutfitters.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> > If these laws are like DOT Regulations, local laws take precedent providing > that they are not less stringent than Federal. > Is that correct? Exactly. > With respect to having PFD's "handy," "handy" would have to be within > reach. This would exclude stowing PFD's in a closed hatch area? I would certainly think so. I've never had to confront that question. My PFD is always stored handily on my body (while paddling, that is). Mark *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Ralph wrote: > > We don't _have_ to wear them in the States either. While the US Coast > > Guard goes through great pains in its annual reports to stress that it > > is smart to wear one all the time, there is no regulation that says you > > have to. > Mark wrote: > I believe some states do have such a regulation (in fact I believe > Connecticut may be one of them, but I'm not certain). It may not be in the > federal regs, but federal law is not the only law in the US. > In Illinois, children under 13 must wear a pfd *at all times* in boats under 26 feet in length when the boat is under way. This law was changed in 1987 when the law was also changed to require boat registration for canoes and kayaks. see http://131.230.57.1/stat_rul/illreg.htm#EQUIP Regards, Erik Sprenne on the Prairie Coast (across the border in Hoosierland) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Connecticut requires canoeists and kayakers to wear PFD's from Nov 1st to April 1st (I'm pretty sure these are the dates). Guess it's so the police can find your body easier in case you weren't wearing a wet/drysuit. "Sailboat Restorations, Inc." wrote: > I believe some states do have such a regulation (in fact I believe > Connecticut may be one of them, but I'm not certain). It may not be in the > federal regs, but federal law is not the only law in the US. > Mark -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wayne Smith wsmith16_at_snet.net Check out my sea kayaking & homebrewing page: http://pages.cthome.net/wsmith16/home.html *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Connecticut requires canoeists and kayakers to wear PFD's from Nov 1st to April > 1st (I'm pretty sure these are the dates). Guess it's so the police can find > your body easier in case you weren't wearing a wet/drysuit. I witnessed some form of Authorities issuing summonses to some hapless canoeists in Darien, CT., because the canoeists didn't have their PFDs on. The Authorities were quite perfunctory about it. No ifs ands or buts. Citations issued. Period. I believe there are several other states that will do the same. Mark *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
| With respect to having PFD's "handy," "handy" would have to be within |reach. This would exclude stowing PFD's in a closed hatch area? Correct the PFD has to accessible and wearable. One of the people who started this thread said that they would just buy a PFD and put it in a hatch. Go right ahead. T'aint accessable so you still get a citation. Many powerboaters will have PFDs that have never been fitted to anyone on board, are crammed into the side spaces along side the hull, buried underneath paddles, tool boxes, tackle boxes, fishing rods, empty beer cans, nets, etc. When asked about PFD's it takes them minutes to find the PFD,s get the junk off of them, remove the lures that have hooked into the PFD, and untagle all the lines wrapped around said PFD. Once removed, the PFD is covered in dirt, oil and gas. And furthermore is likely to be ripped up. Not really servicable anymore. Then they moan and groan about being given a citation...... There could be states that require ADULTS to wear PFDs but I'm not aware of any. I think Florida and North Caroline require children in some age groups to wear PFDs. Lake Lice operators all but have to wear a PFD since they don't have a place to stow that vest that is really accessable. Hope this helps... Dan McCarty *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>There could be states that require ADULTS to wear PFDs but I'm not aware of >any. I think Florida and North Caroline require children in some age >groups to wear PFDs. Lake Lice operators all but have to wear a PFD since >they don't have a place to stow that vest that is really accessable. > NJ and PA both require PFDs be worn by children 12 and under if a boat is under way, no matter what kind of boat. I think Maryland may have an adult rule. I've seen rangers along the Potomac ticketing adults in canoes and kayaks for not wearing one, and escorting them to shore as well if they don't have one on board. Does WV have a similar rule? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
ralph diaz wrote: > Doug Lloyd wrote: > > It is much easier in Canada, as Uliei (spelling, sorry) pointed out. We > > don't have to wear them, just have them available. > > We don't _have_ to wear them in the States either. While the US Coast > Guard goes through great pains in its annual reports to stress that it > is smart to wear one all the time, there is no regulation that says you > have to. <snip> > As a few subsequent posts to yours pointed out, it is a state by state situation in the USA. Here in Canada, home of the strong and free, we indeed do have a bit of our freedom restricted by the CG's regulations pertaining to PFDs. There are, however, no written specifics about where the PFD must be located at this time. It simply says you must have one aboard for each person on the vessel. This means you can carry it in your hatch. It must also be DOT approved here in Canada, and must also be of appropriate size and fit - which is a good regulation in my mind. There are no plans at this time, according to my recent call to the CG in Ottawa, to change these requirements. For those who paddle quiet waters who don't don their PFD, I'm not going to argue with them. I know if I was down there, in a remote area on a calm day/meandering river and or lagoon, my motto would be: "If a tree falls in the forest, and no one is there, did it make a noise" :-) BTW, the RCMP can issue us with up to a $200.00 ticket for not having a DOT approved PFD present. I know a ton of paddlers who's PFD's don't fit the regs, but most don't worry about that portion of the regs, as the authorities are so glad to see you just having a PFD. I think the DOT regulation comes more into play with the operators of larger boats and tour operators. BC'in Ya Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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