Nick wrote; > > The reason I ask is I am working with a grad student who is looking > to do some testing on this subject. We are currently discussing the > conditions to investigate. He wants to find out how strong the > materials need to be, to be "strong enough". > A challenging project, Nick. Just getting past the "strong enough" part would challenge Solomon. (Nick already knows this and I mention it only to suggest that he has probably already given this a lot of thought). For example, any boat that survives to die of old age would qualify as "strong enough" but we might consider any boat that fails "not strong enough". At a local outfitters they have two canoes. One has served for over five years in their rental fleet. They estimate that their average rental canoe gets over 100 days of use every year by all types of paddlers, for better or worse. They now have it for sale and it will make someone a very nice, inexpensive canoe for many more years of use. The other boat will get sent to the dump after only a few weeks of use. The boats are identical in model and construction. Strong enough or too weak? People explored Canada in birchbark and wood canoes long before we had SAR but today anyone not using a poly, aluminum or Royalex canoe runs the risk of getting labeled as "stupid" or "irresponsible" or worse. Maybe we need a study of whether paddlers are strong enough mentally to stay out of trouble. If they pass they can use any damned thing they like. The rest have to stay home and watch extreme sport on TV. :-) Cheers, John Winters *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 8:48 AM -0400 10/12/00, 735769 wrote: >Nick wrote; > >> >> The reason I ask is I am working with a grad student who is looking >> to do some testing on this subject. We are currently discussing the >> conditions to investigate. He wants to find out how strong the >> materials need to be, to be "strong enough". >> > >A challenging project, Nick. Just getting past the "strong enough" part >would challenge Solomon. (Nick already knows this and I mention it only to >suggest that he has probably already given this a lot of thought). Yes, it is a tough nut. The typical method in boat design is scantling rules which are based on past experience. A boat builder builds a boat for years using a certain amount of material and a certain method and gets reports back on how the boats holds up over the years and where there are problems. If something fails a lot the builder beefs it up, if it never breaks, he might slim it down a bit. If he decides to change materials or method he tries to make the new system as strong as the old system. Unfortunately, this system does not strike everyone as scientific enough. The grad student (Sam Mcfadden) wants to put some strain gages on a boat and go paddling. I think we might learn something interesting. Will he learn how strong is "strong enough". At best, only what is strong enough for the conditions he paddled in. But that might be interesting. He will also see where the stresses are in the boat. And we might be able to draw conclusion about other conditions by extension. One of the reasons I would like to hear stories of broken boats, how they broke and how they were built is to get more data for the less "scientific" method of actual experience. Some of the best science started with anecdotal information. Nick -- Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St, Suite I Glastonbury, CT 06033 (860) 659-8847 Schade_at_guillemot-kayaks.com http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ >>>>"It's not just Art, It's a Craft!"<<<< *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Nick wrote: >The grad student (Sam Mcfadden) wants to put some strain > gages on a boat and go paddling. I WoW, your students name made me go check names at NOAA Pacific Marine Lab because Michael James McPhaden http://www.pmel.noaa.gov/toga-tao/mmcv.html is known as the *Mother* of El Nino in the US. i found out that it seems Sam ain't related to Mike. > think we might learn something > interesting. Will he learn how strong is "strong enough". At best, > only what is strong enough for the conditions he paddled in. But that > might be interesting. He will also see where the stresses are in the > boat. And we might be able to draw conclusion about other conditions > by extension. > sounds like a fun project, let us know how it develops. bye bye bliven *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
There might be those interested in the story of a guy convicted for taking the PFD from a drowning 7 year old girl: http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20001012/od/lifejacket_dc_1.html *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
The 7 year old wasn't drowning UNTIL he took the PFD! - *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "Nick Schade" <schade_at_guillemot-kayaks.com> > Unfortunately, this system does not strike everyone as scientific > enough. The grad student (Sam Mcfadden) wants to put some strain > gages on a boat and go paddling. I think we might learn something > interesting. Will he learn how strong is "strong enough". At best, > only what is strong enough for the conditions he paddled in. But that > might be interesting. He will also see where the stresses are in the > boat. And we might be able to draw conclusion about other conditions > by extension. When in university, studying structural engineering, I thought a lot about optimizing to the hilt. Then I learned that the structure in a building represents about 20% of the total cost. Saving 10% on the structure saves 2% on the building - less than the margin for cost overruns due to... Plus you expose yourself to extra lawsuits for adding risk. I gave up the idea. Optimizing a kayak is nothing compared to the several hundred pounds a fully loaded touring kayak weighs. Racers, of course, have other objectives. It's also interesting that some say "this kayak is weak - it flexes too much!" while others say "My skin-on-frame is flexible - that's why it's strong!" Mike. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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