MJAkayaker_at_aol.com wrote: >I would appreciate a little feedback from some of the Greenland style >paddlers out there on the list. >Questions: >1. Can a person my size still effectively use Greenland technique with these >deeper, longer cockpits? >2. Does it sound like I am currently keeping my hands too low for proper technique? >3. Is there anything to watch for to tell if the deeper cockpit is changing >the stroke enough to make a significant difference in my efficiency? >4. Would having a shorter cockpit (like the 20" on some of the Valley kayaks) >allow for keeping the lower hand position that I am use to even if they are >deeper than the 10.75" in the Hawk? (I do not want to make a 3-4 day trip to >test paddle one of these if its not likely to be any different than the boats >I have tried). >5. I am looking for a more manuverable (better suited to surfing) kayak than >the Arctic Hawk. The only ones that I found with lower cockpits are the >Mariner Elan-10.75" and the Dagger Meridian SK-S -11.25" (a cutdown version >of the Meridian SK). Are there some other's out there that I should be >considering? >6. What are the cockpit depths for the Valley Pintail and Avocet? Hi Mark You raise some interesting questions. I spent some time considering sitting position and cockpit depth earlier in the year when designing and making a stitch-n-glue kayak. Its a mystery to me why any one would want to build a kayak with a deck up to your armpits. There are some pictures of my boat at: http://www.abdn.ac.uk/~ltu006/images/stitchnglue/ I based my cockpit on the pintail ocean cockpit, which if I remember correctly has a depth of about 11 inches. I felt however that the pintail had a wee bit too much volume for my interest, but the sitting position relative to cockpit rim, knee bracing under the foredeck and rear deck was pretty much what I was after - relatively flat legs against the underside of the deck compared to knees up and wide white water style bracing. The glass seat (at least in the pintail I borrowed for a couple of weeks to take measurements) is positioned quite high at about 2 inches from the keel, so I built my deck to give a lower depth of nine and a half inches at the front of the cockpit, and about half an inch lower at the rear, but fitted my seat as low as possible to give me essentially the same sitting and bracing position as the pintail but with reduced volume. Consider the seat height as well as the cockpit/deck volume/beam as factors influencing the stroke. If you are interested in valley pintail/avocet I would recommend making the trip and test paddling them, both are really nice boats, but its worth noting that the deck/volume sitting position is somewhat different in the ocean cockpit and key-hole cockpit pintail - if you are going to test paddle, try them both if possible. The relatively wide beam of the pintail to my mind also feels to be slightly out of character with the rest of the boat. If you are looking for a surf boat / sea kayak, then take a look at http://www.radicalmoves.com/ Radical moves make surf kayaks but they also produce a sea boat called the sea squirt, which may well be exactly what you are after. Its top of my list of boats I'd like to paddle. Re greenland paddling style, I wouldn't claim to have any great authority on the subject but what Greg Stamer says makes a lot of sense. I vary the angle of the stroke and I don't get too hung up on keeping it low for the sake of keeping it low, the beauty of greenland paddles is their versatility. I also don't think that there is necessarily any 'proper' stroke - I think that more important than trying to keep the stroke low per say is sensitivity to what the blade is doing, particularly the angle of attack of the blade, and feel and feedback from the blade during different strokes. HTH Colin 57º19'N 2º10'W *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mark, I have the same problem. I am 5'11" and 170 pounds and find that the current commercial offerings of "pseudo SW Greenland kayaks" are simply too big and fat for my tastes. I have always wondered why 21 inches is considered "narrow" in the current kayak market. Perhaps designers fear that anything smaller would appeal to such a small group of paddlers to be a worthwhile return on investment. It's enough to either make you either buy a surf-ski or consider making your own kayak. In my opinion, if you really want to plunge headfirst into advanced Greenland-style techniques then your best bet is to make your own skin-on-frame kayak (and your own paddles). I recommend H.C. Petersen's "Instruction in Kayak Building" <http://www.atuagkat.gl/booksonsale/mar99/art.htm> in conjunction with the two articles on "Building a Greenland kayak" by Chris Cunningham, Winter 1992/Spring 1993 (contact Sea Kayaker for reprints). I have paddled an Anas Acuta for ten years (small cockpit) and was fairly happy with this kayak until I had the use of Maligiaq's rolling kayak for six months in 1998 (shown in Rolling with Maligiaq) and the use of his 17" wide "racing" kayak at this year's Greenland championships. Although my Anas Acuta is 20.5" wide, it looked like a barge when beached next to Maligiaq's rolling kayak. Even a kayak such as a Betsie Bay Recluse, which team member Cindy Cole took to Greenland to compete, was quite large compared to an authentic skin-boat sized for someone of my dimensions. Many of the advanced Greenland rolls require very low volume, and even the Anas has much more volume than I need, especially in the foredeck. As far as commercial kayaks go, Maligiaq Padilla liked the Romany and Pintail and found them slightly easier to roll than the Anas. The Anas does have hard chines that make certain other techniques, like the balance brace and side sculling, easier. If I had to buy a new commercial kayak then my (current) personal favorite is Nigel Foster's Silhouette as it works quite well for many Greenland-style techniques although it is not as maneuverable as the Anas Acuta or Pintail. YMMV, give them all a try and formulate your own conclusions. Too much beam and volume can easily affect your stroke as well as your ability to perform traditional maneuvers. Some of the effects will be obvious (such as busting your knuckles) and others will not be so apparent. For example, if the kayak is too wide and you pad the sides of the seat, then you will find that the hip pads keep your weight suspended high above the water when the kayak is on its side. This will make skills such as the balance brace, side sculling and the Petrussen maneuver more difficult. The Greenlanders often perform an abdominal crunch on each stroke when they sprint, similar to a situp, made possible by the low masik/thighbrace (the sensation is similar to having someone hold your legs during a situp). The high foredeck of commercial kayaks creates too much knee bend to use this technique in the traditional style unless you seriously pad the underside of the deck and then you will still have to deal with the excess volume that interferes with advanced rolling techniques (traditional hand rolls, sculling with the paddle held under the kayak, etc). On the other hand, it is possible that the trouble with your stroke may not necessarily be caused by the kayak. Keep in mind that if you build a Greenland-style paddle to most of the current literature, the instructions often assume that your kayak is not much wider than your hips. If this assumption is not valid then you will have to increase the length of the paddle shaft to accommodate the width of the kayak to avoid leaving remnants of your knuckles on the foredeck. Also, your stroke may indeed be too low. American Greenland-style paddlers are obsessed with keeping the stroke as low as possible. In Greenland the stroke varies between very low for slow touring to a high, vertical stroke for maximum power and speed. During both the 2 mile sprint race and the 10 mile long distance race at the Greenland championships, all of the top paddlers used a high stroke with their narrow paddles. In addition to using legs and body rotation most of the paddlers allowed their pushing hand to rise to shoulder level and punch forward (crossing the centerline) using a strong push-pull component that is common with "Euro" technique but is usually totally absent from American Greenland-style paddlers. Even with a high stroke, the elbows point downward and are kept fairly close to the torso, but are not "glued" to the torso. The strokes are long and flowing with the paddle exiting behind the hip, much different than the short-choppy stroke that I usually see being taught in the States. Many of the paddlers also used the forward tilting blade technique, as recently described in Sea Kayaker, but this was not universal. Regarding surfing, I much prefer to play in my surf kayak and wave ski than in a sea kayak. If you are looking for a maneuverable sea kayak that still is fairly good at Greenland-style techniques then the Anas Acuta, Pintail and Romany (among others) would all be choices for you to consider. Greg Stamer Orlando, Florida http://www.magicnet.net/~gstamer/QK.html *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mark Arnold asked: <SNIP> >>>>6. What are the cockpit depths for the Valley Pintail and Avocet?<<<<SNIP> I have 12" for both, but these aren't measurements I did myself so they may be total depth rather than inside cockpit depth, but I don't know that for sure. Also, a German magazine listed the Pintail at 11.4" (29cm). Greg Stamer <gstamer_at_magicnet.net> answered Mark J. Arnold: >>>>Mark, I have the same problem. I am 5'11" and 170 pounds and find that the current commercial offerings of "pseudo SW Greenland kayaks" are simply too big and fat for my tastes. I have always wondered why 21 inches is considered "narrow" in the current kayak market. Perhaps designers fear that anything smaller would appeal to such a small group of paddlers to be a worthwhile return on investment. <BIG SNIP> If I had to buy a new commercial kayak then my (current) personal favorite is Nigel Foster's Silhouette as it works quite well for many Greenland-style techniques although it is not as maneuverable as the Anas Acuta or Pintail. YMMV, give them all a try and formulate your own conclusions.<<<<< Our original kayak was 20.5" wide. Now the narrowest is 21.5" wide. I too like the performance and handling of Nigel Foster's Silhouette, Shadow, and Legend so when I finally got the chance to become a dealer 3.5 years ago I jumped at it. The Silhouettes' have helped teach me that as a retailer (as well as, as a designer) I have to pay attention at least as much to what my customers will buy as I do to what I personally like. I've still got two Silhouettes w/skegs in stock that I have had for nearly 3 years now (even though the prices are now down to less than wholesale on them). Anybody want to make me an offer? I almost traded one for a well used Titanium Mtn. Bike a few months ago. If Cam and I could have agreed on which hand worked which brake on a bike (or who got the bike) we would have probably made the trade. Got to run off to Nigel's birthday party now, bye. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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