Fernando said: <snip> <<<Iīll suggest you to try surfing "Doug's" stormy seas. There's no holes in the sea, waves can be huge, but sooner or later they collapse and die. And as long as you're not in a rock garden or a coral reef, thereīs no risk of hitting a rock. Iīve been surfing 10 mts waves without fear, and I love and have fun being rocked, shacked, and pushed up and down.>>> I'll try and get to my post about the two kayakers who got into trouble last week off the BC coast. The fellow with the most experience phoned me tonight, but i was on the internet and missed his call. Basically, they were out looking for some fun, and got waaaaay more than they bargained for. You gotta know your area and limits. And as the details will provide, shoulder dislocation and attendant difficulties ensuing are a real enough hazard. The ocean may be soft, but the lessons can be hard. PS Glad Jack is still with us. Thanks for the original post. Not everyone wants to share their close-calls. I value your openness and integrity. Behave, Fernando! BC'in Ya Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug et all, I donīt want to polemize here, but I would like to clarify and maybe, give my excuses ... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Lloyd" <dlloyd_at_telus.net> | Fernando said: | <snip> | | <<<Iīll suggest you to try surfing "Doug's" stormy seas. There's no | holes in | the sea, waves can be huge, but sooner or later they collapse and die. | And | as long as you're not in a rock garden or a coral reef, thereīs no risk | of | hitting a rock. Iīve been surfing 10 mts waves without fear, and I love | and | have fun being rocked, shacked, and pushed up and down.>>> | Doug said: | I'll try and get to my post about the two kayakers who got into trouble | last week off the BC coast. The fellow with the most experience phoned | me tonight, but i was on the internet and missed his call. Basically, | they were out looking for some fun, and got waaaaay more than they | bargained for. You gotta know your area and limits. And as the details | will provide, shoulder dislocation and attendant difficulties ensuing | are a real enough hazard. The ocean may be soft, but the lessons can be | hard. Totally agree with you Doug. When I read Jack's original message, Iīve seen myself reflected, and I simply wanted to express it, and let him know he was not the only one. Discovering you won't be able to do something you've been used to do, is not a nice experience. You feel a part of you is gone forever, and somehow you feel you are less than you were before. This is the reason why I told him how did I find stormy seas as a good ( and in my opinion, safer ) replacement for class IV rivers. I know the dangers we are exposed while entering the sea, but my message should be interpreted as sent from a class III whitewater kayaker to a class IV whitewater kayaker, and either to run class III or IV whitewater safely, you must know how to perfectly read the rapids, measure the risks, and know your limits and your partner's limits. Whitewater rodeo and playboating involves more risks than seakayaking stormy seas ( except if you are thinking to ride a Tsunami !, .... smile :) ), but this doesnīt mean you canīt result severely injured, and even die. I recognize Doug as a person who is well aware of the risk, and preaches words of care and safety in all possible manners, and I thank him for this. Said that, then I may have to give my apologizes, because I now realize that when I said " "Doug's" stormy seas ", I may have sound rude to him. Saying "stormy seas" would be graphical enough. The image I have of Doug paddling among huge waves may be only in my imagination, but it's a very good picture of a kayaker enjoying an extreme adventure plenty of most of the ingredients found in class IV rivers. So by saying "Doug's stormy seas" I simply wanted to transmit this image. And I remember a mail from Jackie begging us to avoid naming each other if not necessary. So sorry Dog, sorry Jackie, and everybody, I learned my lesson. I love fun, I love emotion and adrenaline, but Iīve already been hurt bad enough to never want to suffer again. I know my limits and there's some I'm willing to cross and some I'm not. So I measure the risks and take the chances, and I never do it if there's no "chicken's way" to escape. But we all make mistakes and no matter how experienced I am, I am not the exception. This is a risky sport, I know that, I do my best. Please, no bad feelings nor bad interpretations. Just trying to give a positive message. Have fun ! Kayak Argentina - Sea Kayaking Mailing List Fernando Lopez Arbarello kayak_argentina_at_uol.com.ar *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Fernando responded to my suggestion the ocean was softer, but the lessons harder: < I donīt want to polemize here, but I would like to clarify and maybe, give my excuses ..>. Fernando, You didn't need to clarify here, as I understood the intent and context of your post originally. Sorry you felt like I was pointing a finger at you, suggesting you had offended me. (No one on this list can offend me after some of the stuff I go through back channel with ex-paddling partners :-) ). I was simply emphasizing to newer paddlers on the list who might be reading, of the notion that you can get into trouble on any body of water, be it ocean, lake of moving river. Also, shoulder dislocations are not as uncommon as people think, nor are other injuries -- both in river whitewater and ocean "whitewater". Being a medical adjudicator for the Provincial Government of BC, I see a lot of kayak related injury reports. Well, at least my co-workers run over to me when they get them, 'cause they know I'm a kayaker: "Look here Doug, must be one of your idiot kayaker friends!" Nice, eh? I see lots of broken nose injuries, near drownings, shoulder dislocations (surfing), and lacerations. Some of these reports originate from different parts of the world where British Columbian kayakers have been off adventuring (coast of South America, Hawaii, etc). Privacy issues forbid me from delineating much further. You also said: <Said that, then I may have to give my apologizes, because I now realize that when I said " "Doug's" stormy seas ", I may have sound rude to him. Saying "stormy seas" would be graphical enough. The image I have of Doug paddling among huge waves may be only in my imagination, but it's a very good picture of a kayaker enjoying an extreme adventure plenty of most of the ingredients found in class IV rivers.> Yeah, most of my rough water sea kayaking is in my imagination too! Well, I have done my fair share of rough water, to be sure. A 7-meter sea with a 9-foot chop and gale-force winds is about the worse combination I've been in. One good thing about playing in rough water seas "on purpose", is that you don't panic so much, or reach your limits, when caught in average stormy seas during a regular trip. The seas we encountered in the Storm Islands incident were within my comfort zone, having been out in far worse before - though not towing someone for 6 hours :-). One thing that newer paddlers need to realize, especially gung ho macho types, is that the sea can be a lot more difficult to paddle than it appears from shore. Often, sitting at the beach, looking out of a small bay to seaward, you may be left with the impression that it doesn't look "too bad". Get out there, commit to a headland or some such thing, and you may be in for a bit of trauma. The sea doesn't have to be huge and nasty looking to present a major challenge. If most paddlers that like to talk about rough water paddling were honest with themselves and others, they would admit that a kayak traveling about 4-knots has many other limitations imposed, such as vessel size, stability thresholds, limits of skill and endurance, and personal aversion to the prospect of death. I can always tell after a few posts on paddlewise, whether a paddler is talking or walking the walk. The other thing that can catch newer paddlers intent on a little fun and adventure in rough seas is sudden wind direction change. The transition time can be very short when a front moves through rapidly, and if you haven't allowed enough of a margin or if the wind direction is integral to reaching shore you could be in for a bit a beating - or worse. Always, repeat, always, have an escape route or bail-out/backup plan. Do the thinking to make sure you have covered all eventualities. I once got into some of the worst seas ever imaginable off Cape Beale (entrance to Barkley Sound, West Coast Vancouver Island) - heavy swell reflecting off cliffs, big chop, with "elevator rides" so severe it felt as if the sea would suddenly disapeer for a momment from under the kayak The plan was to duck back into the Sound and Bamfield if it got too hairy. I forgot about a heavy outgoing tide that only made the seas that much worse and tightened entry to the escape route. A huge race off Cape Flattery in heavy seas did the same thing to me again . I've left these stories mostly silent under my "stupid is as stupid does" section of my log book. Well, don't rely too heavily on the forecasts. EC predicted gales to 35-knots this morning. Trial Island off Victoria was gusting to 49. Always allow for a healthy margin of error. And as always, those who paddle "Class IV" ocean whitewater know that it is less a matter of wholesale physicality, than it is of intelligence and conditioning to get you back home safely. Best wishes and all friendship to you Fernando. And remember, "Safety SMILES!" BC'in Ya Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "Doug Lloyd" Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Soft Water (was?) > > The other thing that can catch newer paddlers intent on a little fun and > adventure in rough seas is sudden wind direction change. The transition > time can be very short when a front moves through rapidly, and if you > haven't allowed enough of a margin or if the wind direction is integral > to reaching shore you could be in for a bit a beating - or worse. > hi, a couple of years ago, i read the scientific literature that compared (a) observations of the rate at which seas adjust to veering winds and (b) numerical model predications. the numerical models relied heavily on a factor that accounts for the strength of wave-wave interactions. that factor is difficult to measure directly, but by heavy numeric Klass Hasselman of Germany obtained a solution from some nasty equations. Hasselman is famous worldwide for that pioneering work. However, the computations were done for wave-wave interactions with waves traveling in one directions. During veering winds, the wind direction changes and there are waves from various directions. It happens that the numerical computations *do not* agree well with observations of waves during veering wind conditions. The wave field changes about twice as fast as is predicted by the models. Thus Doug's comment that the transition time can be very short when a front moves rapidly agrees with what i read..... the modeling problem may have been addressed during the past few years, but it is still prudent to be aware that fronts and veering winds make life very difficult folks who are paid to make wave forecasts. bye bye bliven *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Jack Fu wrote: > Doug wrote: > > > .. The whole fam damily does it with me. I especially delight in > > placing my old lady in the bow... > > > ... paddle yer open canoe in tidal rapids off-shore. Yup, done > > that too, and with the whole fam damily in there again. > > Funny, Doug, you don't *look* like Nanook of the North. > :-) > No, not me. I'd never kill a "large marrine mammel with big flukes", with or without my family present (wouldn't even pet one to death :-) ), and certainly wouldn't eat raw meat. Now, getting my wife to crawl in behind my cockpit -- that would be an interesting accomplishment. Maybe in her pre-child carrying years :-). Speaking of "Nanook of the North", there is a new film due out, called "Atanarjuat" (or Swift Runner). The exciting thriller, set in ancient Igloolik in Canada's eastern Arctic, is a fully aboriginal production, and Canada's first feature film written in Aboriginal language. I'm hoping there might be some kayaking in it, but that remains to be seen. Some info at: <http://www.telefilm.gc.ca/en/prod/film/film_00/001.htm> I bet Inuit legends, if ever made into a TV series, would even cause me to get a TV again. BC'in Ya Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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