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From: <MJAkayaker_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Kayak Fit
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 23:24:54 EDT
Dave Kruger wrote:

<<Although it is normal to do some outfitting to make the cockpit fit 
you,...>>

This brings up some questions I have thought about for some time.   I am 
asking the following with the idea of really optimizing my paddling 
efficiency and boat control.   With that in mind, I am really looking for 
changes that make a significant enough difference that the effect would be 
readily apparent (20% of the things you can change usually give you 80% of 
the total possible improvement).

If a boat is a little large you can bring you knees or thighs into contact 
with the deck and or braces by either padding out the deck/brace or by 
bringing the footrests back so that you knees are more bent.  Besides 
adjusting to a comfortable position is there any plus or minus to more or 
less knee bend.  If so how is a good way to judge if you might benefit from 
more or less knee bend.  One of my paddling partners thinks it is easier to 
edge and roll with the knees bent quite a bit  

I did discover that when I brought the footrests back so far that I could not 
fully straighten out my leg that it was much more difficult to edge the 
kayak.  I now have the rests adjusted so that I can straigthen out my legs 
such that the back of the knee touchs the hull when I slide my heel forward 
so that my toes are pointing straight up.  I still have firm contact with the 
footrest, but it is more on my arch than on the balls of the feet.  I get 
contact with the deck by bending my knee up, letting my heel slide back, and 
pushing the toes forward.  Contact with the footrest is now on the balls of 
my foot. Having one leg flat on the hull while lifting with the other knee 
seems to have improved my edging quite a bit.  Any problems with this kind of 
adjustment? 

If you are using a sliding footpedal controlled rudder should the footpedal 
adjustment really be determined by being able to move the rudder enough.   
How much swing would you want to get out of the rudder when you leg is fully 
extended (45deg, 60deg, as much as the rudder mech allows)?  Or do you just 
do a normal adjustment with the rudder centered and live with whatever amount 
of rudder travel that will give you. 

If you have thigh braces is there any benefit to padding out the knee contact 
area for a tight fit as well as padding out the thigh braces?  If you do not 
have thigh braces do you need to make a kneepad with hooked shape (thicker 
toward the middle of the kayak) to help keep the knee from sliding inward?

Finally is there a benefit to really tightening the fit at the hips.  I know 
I do not want to feel like I am sliding around, but should I keep making the 
fit tighter until I start to have trouble with a wet exit and then back off 
just a little.  Is there a rule of thumb for testing the hip fit in a kayak?

Mark J. Arnold


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From: Kirk Olsen <kolsen_at_imagelan.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Kayak Fit
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 12:14:54 -0400 (EDT)
On Thu, 19 Oct 2000 MJAkayaker_at_aol.com wrote:

> This brings up some questions I have thought about for some time.   I am 
> asking the following with the idea of really optimizing my paddling 
> efficiency and boat control.   With that in mind, I am really looking for 
> changes that make a significant enough difference that the effect would be 
> readily apparent (20% of the things you can change usually give you 80% of 
> the total possible improvement).

I would start by working on your forward stroke mechanics.  A really good
forward stroke will make a huge difference in how far, how fast, and how 
long you can paddle.  Try looking into freestyle canoeing 
http://www.mbnet.mb.ca/freestyle/freestyle.html.  That paddling
style has phenomenal boat and paddle control.  Some of the moves can be
adapted to a kayak.
 
> If a boat is a little large you can bring you knees or thighs into contact 
> with the deck and or braces by either padding out the deck/brace or by 
> bringing the footrests back so that you knees are more bent.  Besides 
> adjusting to a comfortable position is there any plus or minus to more or 
> less knee bend.  If so how is a good way to judge if you might benefit from 
> more or less knee bend.  One of my paddling partners thinks it is easier to 
> edge and roll with the knees bent quite a bit  

I like my legs so they have room to wiggle around, a couple inches of play
at the knees, but can be snugged up quickly.  I like to be able to keep 
my butt, both knees and both feet in one place while edging and rolling.  
When snugged into place I prefer if my butt stays in contact with the seat,
even when upside down.

> If you are using a sliding footpedal controlled rudder should the footpedal 
> adjustment really be determined by being able to move the rudder enough.   
> How much swing would you want to get out of the rudder when you leg is fully 
> extended (45deg, 60deg, as much as the rudder mech allows)?  Or do you just 
> do a normal adjustment with the rudder centered and live with whatever amount 
> of rudder travel that will give you. 

Eek.  Shoot the sliding footpedal controls as soon as possible.
 
> If you have thigh braces is there any benefit to padding out the knee contact 
> area for a tight fit as well as padding out the thigh braces?  If you do not 
> have thigh braces do you need to make a kneepad with hooked shape (thicker 
> toward the middle of the kayak) to help keep the knee from sliding inward?

I want my knees to stay where I put them, regardless of what angle the boat
and my body are.
 
> Finally is there a benefit to really tightening the fit at the hips.  I know 
> I do not want to feel like I am sliding around, but should I keep making the 
> fit tighter until I start to have trouble with a wet exit and then back off 
> just a little.  Is there a rule of thumb for testing the hip fit in a kayak?

Hip outfitting gets tough for those of us in cold areas.  What's snug in
a drysuit with fleece will be loose in a bathing suit.  Leaving room on each
side of my hips to slide in my fingers (sungly) has worked for me.

kirk
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From: John Waddington <waddinj_at_recorder.ca>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Kayak Fit
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 15:16:09 -0400
I have overcome that by making two sets of foam that I use to
block my hips into place.  They are attached to the kayak with
velcro. At the end of the warm weather season I pull out the
thicker set and attach the thinner set, making room for my fleecey
clothes and my drysuit.

John

Kirk Olsen wrote:
> 
> Hip outfitting gets tough for those of us in cold areas.  What's snug in
> a drysuit with fleece will be loose in a bathing suit.  Leaving room on each
> side of my hips to slide in my fingers (sungly) has worked for me.
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From: Rex Roberton <rexrob_at_mac.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Kayak Fit, hips, check out this web site
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 19:28:15 +0000
on 10/20/00 3:24 AM, MJAkayaker_at_aol.com at MJAkayaker_at_aol.com wrote:

snip
> Finally is there a benefit to really tightening the fit at the hips.  I know
> I do not want to feel like I am sliding around, but should I keep making the
> fit tighter until I start to have trouble with a wet exit and then back off
> just a little.  Is there a rule of thumb for testing the hip fit in a kayak?


You should feel the hip pads on each hip but should not develop any sore
areas after paddling for several hours.  Proper torso rotation in the paddle
stroke also creates a slight rotation at the hips and if the pads are too
tight you will develop pressure points in the hips.

Here is a good general on-shore guide for checking to see if your hip pads
are too tight or too loose.  Put the kayak on the lawn or another protected
surface.  Get in the kayak.  As mentioned above, you should feel the pads
touching both hips.  Roll the kayak over on one side so all your weight goes
on one hip.  Now how much space is between the other hip and that pad?  If
the pad is still touching the hip then your fit may be too tight.  If there
is about 1/2 inch between your hip and the pad then you are close to a good
fit.  Go paddle and see how it feels.

I shape my hip pads so they catch my hips if I lift straight up so I'm
"locked" in the kayak at the hips if I want to be but as soon as I turn my
hips a little I come right out.  After you've done a custom fit go practice
wet exits with a friend near by.

Check out Ken and Kathea Rasmussen's web site at www.kayakfit.com.  Go to
the photos for pictures of several custom cockpits.  The skin-on-frame is my
boat which I built three years ago.  It has custom knee/thigh braces, custom
hip pads and a custom seat.  They are covered with a black synthetic fabric
which is used for covering speaker grills.  The hip pads in the other boats
are covered with a layer of 1/16" dual density self adhesive foam.

Rex Roberton

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