Wes Boyd <boydwe_at_dmci.net> wrote: >>>>>>>At 09:54 PM 11/22/00 -0800, Matt Broze wrote: >stability too:-) My notes say I could spin 360 degrees in 23 sec. leaned (to >the outside) and in 27 seconds with the hull level. I could turn 180 degrees >(at speed while leaned out to the risk point) in 11 sec. and the 180 turn >took 18 seconds if I didn't lean at all (a measure of tracking stiffness). >Averages of 305 N.Amer. kayaks I tested are 11 seconds for the 180 degree >leaned turn and 20 sec. for the 180 if level (259 kayaks for this (snip of more data) OK, let's move on to lateral stability now that everyone's eyes are glazed. This peek we were just given into your notebooks is fascinating. For years, I've been of the opinion that the boats that I normally paddle are very stiff tracking, yet the numbers you present here aren't that out of line with what I'm used to. Because of my size, I don't get to paddle a lot of smaller kayaks, but I've been of the opinion that my size adds to the stiff tracking.<<<<<< Because you are heavier you sink the keels deeper and that probably makes the kayaker harder to turn and your extra strength won't help make it all up >>>>>>My Nimbus Telkwa is a slow turner, although I've never timed it the way you have. In fact, I suspect it turns faster with the rudder up than it does with the rudder down. (The rudder is nice to have in crosswinds, though.) Again, I suspect that my fat butt has something to do with the slow turning times.<<<<<< Actually the Telkwa is only a stiff tracker/slow turner if you don't lean it strongly. It is an amazingly maneuverable kayak for being over 18' long if you are willing to lean strongly. In fact the Std. Telkwa had the biggest percentage spread between how quick I could turn it 180 degrees leaned vs. how quick I could turn it level. 9 sec vs. 28 sec. 8/23 for the HV for me and 10/29 for the Telkwa Sport. Next time you paddle it Wes time how fast you can turn it and spin it in place both leaned and holding it level thoughout. Send us or me the results. Do you have the Std. or HV? BTW it took me 12 sec. with the rudder down and turned fully compared to 9 seconds without. Usually the rudder is a second slower or the same. The Telkwa rudder probably can't be angled as much as some others. Still 12 seconds is a pretty much average turning time for a North American sea kayak and fast for a 18 footer. 360 degree spin in place times were 22 sec. leaned, 29 sec. leaned with rudder, and 27 sec. level. Being heavier your times for level measures will probably be slower. You should still be able (with practice) to learn to turn with a strong lean close to as much faster than your level time as I could do under my level time. The fact that you sink the kayak deeper will limit your lean angle where the cockpit goes under. If you have a spraydeck on you could lean it as much as I do. BTW I weight 190 pounds. >>>>>>Earlier this month, I paddled a whitewater boat that was large enough to fit me -- an older Prijon T-Canyon -- and I can't believe it would have taken more than two seconds to do a 180 level and sitting. We're talking turning on a dime and giving back nine cents change. Needless to say, it was not the most pleasant boat to paddle on flatwater that I've ever seen. So, I guess I'm saying that sea kayaks in general tend to all be pretty stiff tracking. What, in your subjective opinion, is a good balance between tracking and turning for a touring boat? A surfing kayak? What do you do to get the best of both worlds? <<<<<<< I like to see tracking level be at least twice as slow as one can turn it leaned to the point water might splash (but not pour) into the cockpit. All strokes are broad strong forward sweep strokes on one side and the turn is started at cruising speed. Shorter boats will turn much quicker than long ones (in general) but a level turn (tracking) time can be lower in a shorter kayak and it will feel like it tracks fine where the long kayak with the same tracking number might feel squirrelly. Personally I want enough tracking so I don't have to pay any attention to tracking on calm water (and not have to fight strong tendencies in wind and waves). After that I'd try to make the kayak turn as quickly as possible. since leaning lowers turning times I try to enhance the leaned turn. When packing a heavy gear load I like a little stiffer tracking kayak than when paddling one empty because the extra mass in the ends can make a yaw harder to stop then. For surf maneuverability is a real plus. How do we try to get the best of both? Well, there are some things we keep to ourselves. >>>>>>>.I suppose that this is one of those things where everyone has an opinion. I'd be interested in seeing a few of your figures for turn times for selected examples of various popular boats, to see how they compare.<<<<< - -- Wes Someday I might put the whole thing on the web but it probably won't happen until after I retire. Right now you can find the numbers for our all Mariner kayaks about 3/4 of the way through the paddling manual on our website. We put them there to give our customers some times to shoot for in an effort to get them to become better and safer paddlers. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************Received on Sat Nov 25 2000 - 07:32:17 PST
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