The advantage of starting with rigid hunk of meat is that all other conditions can be extrapolated from the response of the boat with the meat. It takes effort but by looking at information such as the slope of the curve and the area under the curve you can predict the response of the boat if the person does more than sit there like a rigid hunk of meat. The hunk of meat is just a useful non-subjective starting point. I will admit that the best way for any individual to determine how a boat feels for him/herself is to get in the boat and see how the boat feels for him/herself. But there are a lot of boats out there and if you are looking for a new boat, you really don't want to have to try every one before choosing the best one for you. Knowledgeable inspection of stability curves is one way to reduce the field. Or if you have a design you want to change by some criteria, knowing what aspect of the stability curve represents that criteria will save a lot of time testing boats. Nick -- Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St, Suite I Glastonbury, CT 06033 (860) 659-8847 Schade_at_guillemot-kayaks.com http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ >>>>"It's not just Art, It's a Craft!"<<<< *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Nick wrote: > The advantage of starting with rigid hunk of meat is that all other > conditions can be extrapolated from the response of the boat with the > meat. It takes effort but by looking at information such as the slope > of the curve and the area under the curve you can predict the > response of the boat if the person does more than sit there like a > rigid hunk of meat. The hunk of meat is just a useful non-subjective > starting point. I've found through my experience (disclaimer non-pareil) that when I start out in a new "tippy" kayak, that I am in fact the rigid hunk of meat you mentioned, i.e., filled with tension, fear, and a sense of cold, miserable impending doom. (The rigidity being a firmly-fastened set-up for the easiest roll I know). The "hunk-of-meat" lack of subjectivity is indeed valuable, but when I am that hunk of meat, notions are quite objective, if not blasphemous. But seriously, the curves are indeed valuable (but do take effort to read) for a sense of what one is getting into, but stability can be "learned", and for most paddlers, an unfavorable curve may simply keep them from ever giving a fine boat a chance-- In a vessel so connected to conditions and "captain's skills", stability is the other 1/3 of the factor (and the key is to honing the captain's skills in harmony with ambient conditions.) Much like learning to ride a bike, (a skill I have mastered, if I may brag), one can get-used-to a 'tippy' kayak with LOTS of patience and practice. Snip: > I will admit that the best way for any individual to determine how a > boat feels for him/herself is to get in the boat and see how the boat > feels for him/herself. But there are a lot of boats out there and if > you are looking for a new boat, you really don't want to have to try > every one before choosing the best one for you. Knowledgeable > inspection of stability curves is one way to reduce the field. Or if > you have a design you want to change by some criteria, knowing what > aspect of the stability curve represents that criteria will save a > lot of time testing boats. Yes, actually trying a kayak is best-- perhaps we'll all agree. With kayaks whose curves exhibit low initial stability, the "trying" may be quite trying, and negative opinions can be formed hastily (and/or for good reason as well!) Patience, again-- just as when bicycling was learned. My experience with very tippy kayaks comes from learning to use various traditional kayak replicas-- one in particular was calculated as having -.03 meter/kilograms of righting moment with 1 degree of heel (as per Zimmerly's calculations of the MacKenzie Delta Kayak CMC IV-D-1058, as published in Eugene Arima's "Inuit Kayaks In Canada", 1987 (Pg. 165). Had I read of this stability "fact" prior to 'wasting' so much time building a replica of this kayak, I perhaps would've dismissed it as "impossible." I've found the kayak very possible indeed,(though with practise,) and I attribute my ability and love of this kayak to perserverence, patience, and a large chunk of naivete regarding stability curves and their meanings (e.g., The coyote never falls until he realizes he has over-stepped the cliff) A stability curve does say a lot-- certainly more than the holy but insignificant measurement of "beam" does. (I have a 19" wide kayak that's tippier than my 15-1/4" wide kayak. [Heresy!]) As Nick said, there is no substitution to trying the kayak yourself. He also says that it takes effort and knowledge to use the curves. I personally think that for the average paddler-non-naval-architect, that the kayak could be paddled extensively before the curves for the particular design can begin to make practical sense. (Lest we presume to understand the "curve" before we really understand the kayak.) Harvey Golden www.pacifier.com/~qayaq *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
As a guy who likes to design kayaks and tends to have an engineering bent, I place some value on the stability curve. But I don't feel I really know how a kayak handles until I've paddled it for a while. I don't think anyone should let a stability curve convince them to buy a boat they otherwise don't feel comfortable in or scare them away from a boat that they really like. If a lumberjack can stand up and run around on a half submerged log, most people should be able learn to stay upright in just about any kayak built. One value of knowing how to read a stability curve for the layman is to protect themselves from salesmen who hide behind simple, logical sounding phrases like: "This boat is wider than that one so is more stable." or "Because this boat is hard chined it has very good secondary stability." Just knowing that stability is more complicated than width or chine shape will go a long way to making a more informed buyer. And maybe having the idea in the back of their mind that there may be a point in the stability where it changes from getting stiffer to getting looser, will make the buyer try to look for that point when they try a boat. They may or may not like the feeling, but at least they might think to look for it and form an opinion. This knowledge can also help organize their thoughts about what it is they like about the boat. Instead of just "I like this boat and it is hard chined, therefore I like hard chined boats." it can be "I like the way this boat gets harder to tip before it goes all the way over." and look for boats which respond the same instead of just looking the same. This could all be learned without ever looking at a stability curve, but learning about the curve can help understanding the factors involved. Nick At 9:45 PM -0800 11/20/00, Harvey Golden wrote: > <snip> > >A stability curve does say a lot-- certainly more than the holy but >insignificant measurement of "beam" does. (I have a 19" wide kayak that's >tippier than my 15-1/4" wide kayak. [Heresy!]) As Nick said, there is no >substitution to trying the kayak yourself. He also says that it takes >effort and knowledge to use the curves. I personally think that for the >average paddler-non-naval-architect, that the kayak could be paddled >extensively before the curves for the particular design can begin to make >practical sense. (Lest we presume to understand the "curve" before we >really understand the kayak.) > Harvey Golden > www.pacifier.com/~qayaq -- Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St, Suite I Glastonbury, CT 06033 (860) 659-8847 Schade_at_guillemot-kayaks.com http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ >>>>"It's not just Art, It's a Craft!"<<<< *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 11/21/00 12:26:47 AM, qayaq_at_pacifier.com writes: << In a vessel so connected to conditions and "captain's skills", stability is the other 1/3 of the factor (and the key is to honing the captain's skills in harmony with ambient conditions.) Much like learning to ride a bike, (a skill I have mastered, if I may brag), one can get-used-to a 'tippy' kayak with LOTS of patience and practice. >> This is reassuring in that it says that if I hang in there with my boat I can get to the level of comfort I want. This is the fundamental reason for me reading as much of this as I have. The issues I've had with comfort in my boat have lead to extreme frustration on my part. Perhaps understanding how a 23+" boat can be tippy will give me some tools to dealing with my own sense of being "filled with tension, fear, and a sense of cold, miserable impending doom." Thanks to all of you who have contributed. I don't always understand what you are saying but I get the drift. Joan Spinner Still working on her CD Gulfstream *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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