<< Dana said: <snip> <<<My question is have others who paddle in cold had similar experiences with insulation dampness? If so, have you found a solution to the dampness?>>> Doug Lloyd <dlloyd_at_telus.net> writes: When it comes to paddling, you can either be cold and damp or warm and damp, your choice :-) .. I find a tight neoprene spray skirt around one's torso to be doing a bit of a disservice to the whole notion of insulation and dead-air space. ... .. Some conditions I encounter require a bombproof skirt, ... .. from the waist down, there isn't much movement in kayaking. ... .. Good luck with your search for the ultimate set-up. Ralph Hoehn muses: http://brooks.uniserve.com/tuliq.html .. is perhaps worth another look. I'm not affiliated with the company in any way whatsoever, but I hear more and more about the use of the traditional "tuiliq" in various guises. Wolfgang Brinck gives a short description of how to build your own in his (baidarka building) book "The Aleutian Kayak". (He wears his PFD under his tuiliq, by the way!) Other related links: http://www.seakayakermag.com/oct99/tuiliqs.htm (good description) http://www.magicnet.net/~gstamer/Petrussen_Maneuver.html (interesting twist on being able to get to the surface while the boat is capsized WITHOUT leaving the cockpit, IF you are wearing a tuiliq ... or even a flexible skirt with a strong seal) http://www.nunatsiaq.com/archives/nunavut990930/nvt90917_12.html The main objection to the use of a tuiliq (as I understand it) is that it does relatively little to protect a paddler once s/he has ejected from the boat and is in cold water. I suppose the point of the tuiliq is that the likelihood of actually having to leave the boat is greatly reduced -- see the Petrussen article above -- and thus there is less need to be "dressed for immersion". Does anyone have any experience with self-rescue starting from the "Petrussen maneuver" position? It seems that the later stages of a re-entry and roll should work (as Greg Stamer infers in the article). Best regards, Ralph C. Hoehn Ralph_at_PouchBoats.com www.PouchBoats.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Not that I'm from a cold climate, but I know some people who buy their tuliqs sized to go over a dry suit -- perhaps the best of all possible worlds? Warm head, no constricting skirt, and you have immersion protection too. I believe you can get cags from the UK which have a similar uni-skirt proposal. And finally, I know that a ww dry top used to be made with a build-in skirt, but I couldn't find it upon a quick search of the web. Those sorts of things might go ok with a farmer john/jane as well. My own thoughts from looking at that combo is that the arms would get really bunchy -- my dry top has enough extra material to make another one in it. I'll let Greg comment on the rescue. Jen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>Ralph Hoehn muses: SNIP >The main objection to the use of a tuiliq (as I understand it) is that it >does relatively little to protect a paddler once s/he has ejected from the >boat and is in cold water. I suppose the point of the tuiliq is that the >likelihood of actually having to leave the boat is greatly reduced -- see >the Petrussen article above -- and thus there is less need to be "dressed >for immersion". Does anyone have any experience with self-rescue starting >from the "Petrussen maneuver" position? It seems that the later stages of a >re-entry and roll should work (as Greg Stamer infers in the article). Ralph, A tuiliq by itself is similar to a drytop and the full hood offers excellent protection from the cold. In the 34 degree water temps in Greenland last July, I usually wore a Goretex drysuit with a medium-weight pile liner underneath my tuiliq, but a neoprene tuiliq by itself is quite dry and very warm, assuming of course, that you stay in your kayak. I find that they are much too hot for touring in warm weather. The first time that you wear one of these garments you will discover just how restrictive a tight neoprene skirt really is; the freedom of motion is quite remarkable. My tuiliq is cut for a small Greenland cockpit, but it still allows enough adjustment to fit a wide variety of glass boats with popular cockpit sizes. As an aside, the Brooks tuiliq is very popular with the Greenlanders and most of the paddlers at the training camp that I attended had their own suit. For the competition, however, the Greenlanders were required to wear sealskin tuiliqs, which are not as warm as neoprene. Maligiaq Padilla borrowed my drysuit and wore his sealskin tuiliq over it for the rolling competition. As a result, the seal oil from his tuiliq has bled through the goretex in the shoulder area of my drysuit. I am not sure how this will effect the long-term life of the suit or its breathability. I now have to keep it locked away from my dogs, who love the gamey scent (of the seal oil that is)! I have heard plenty of arguments about salt-water and goretex; how come I have seen no threads on Paddlewise warning me about sealskin, dogs and goretex? ;^) Very few of the Greenlanders that I met wore anything other than a wool sweater or nylon shirt, pants and socks under the tuiliq, although I did see one drysuit in use. The vast majority of the traditional paddlers also don't wear PFDs, as the emphasis is on staying in your kayak rather than bailing out into freezing water. Wet exits are not a part of their paddling regimen, whereas learning to be comfortable while capsized is. PFDs were not allowed to be worn for the rolling competition due to concerns that the buoyancy might affect the techniques. They were allowed for the racing events but I didn't see any in use. If you prefer, the Brooks tuiliq is cut large enough to allow a PFD to be worn over or under the suit. Some of the Greenlanders use the "Petrussen maneuver" and others simply scull up with their hands or paddle to get a breath, if they capsize and can't roll. At the Greenland championships several paddlers capsized during the races, who couldn't roll. In every case they stayed in the kayaks and waited for rescue even though rescue took several minutes in one case. Regarding rescues from the "Petrussen maneuver", I will sometimes perform a layback hand-roll or a reverse roll (sweep paddle in a low-brace from stern to bow) directly from the Petrussen maneuver. Otherwise it is just as easy to take a good breath and adopt a forward leaning tuck position and perform the roll of your choice. I have also practiced inflating a paddle float with my head above the surface. You can then roll up with the float by itself or after attaching it to the paddle, although this requires a little more effort. Greg Stamer Orlando, Florida http://www.magicnet.net/~gstamer/QK.html *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Greg Stamer wrote: > > >Ralph Hoehn muses: > SNIP > >The main objection to the use of a tuiliq (as I understand it) is that it > >does relatively little to protect a paddler once s/he has ejected from the > >boat and is in cold water. I suppose the point of the tuiliq is that the > >likelihood of actually having to leave the boat is greatly reduced -- see > >the Petrussen article above -- and thus there is less need to be "dressed > >for immersion". Does anyone have any experience with self-rescue starting > >from the "Petrussen maneuver" position? It seems that the later stages of a > >re-entry and roll should work (as Greg Stamer infers in the article). > > Ralph, > > A tuiliq by itself is similar to a drytop and the full hood offers > excellent protection from the cold. In the 34 degree water temps in > Greenland last July, I usually wore a Goretex drysuit with a medium-weight > pile liner underneath my tuiliq, but a neoprene tuiliq by itself is quite > dry and very warm, assuming of course, that you stay in your kayak. I think what the other Ralph was pointing to was the fact that a tuiliq is basically a nightshirt-style garment with no real effective way of closing in the bottom. So in a spill you have cold water up into your torso area and down into your sleeves. A dry top, at least, has a semblance of a waist closure in a wide neoprene band that slows cold water movement up into the torso area. The tuiliq seems to have a wide temperature range. Richard Nonas, the sculptor whose exhibit I mentioned is starting this week, wears his tuiliq right through the summer months here in New York with air temperatures well into the 90s and water in the 70s. While the rest of us at the Downtown Boathouse are in light-colored tank tops and shorts, Richard is in his jet black tuiliq. I almost faint from the heat when I see him wandering around the dock getting his boat setup. Once on the water, he, of course, does some rolls or sculling to wet the garment and cool down. BTW, he does have several of the garments from Goretex to neoprene, so it isn't quite as bad as it seems. But that black Ninja color with the sun beating down on you and our high humidity certainly taxes even the best of Goretex. What worries me with a tuiliq is the sense of entrapment. With the hem of the garment drawn tightly around the cockpit coaming in a fiberglass boat, you have to be pretty certain you have enough moxie to hang out in your boat until you get help or can roll up in some way. Sprayskirts too are fitted tightly around the cockpit coaming but their material is stretched on. Most sprayskirts will release when you put enough tension on them as you start rising or falling from your seat. And you always have the front release strap to pull it away from the rim and pop it off. I don't believe the tuiliq has such a release strap. And with all the loose material of the garment, you have to do a lot of rising or falling from your seat before you can hope to come free from the cockpit rim. Since I have never tried using one, this all may be conjecture on my part or an expression of a primeval fear. Can anyone who has used a tuiliq on a fiberglass cockpit rim comment on how easy is it to do a wet exit in comparison to a nylon sprayskirt and a neoprene sprayskirt? ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Ralph Diaz wrote: >I think what the other Ralph was pointing to was the fact that a tuiliq >is basically a nightshirt-style garment with no real effective way of >closing in the bottom. So in a spill you have cold water up into your >torso area and down into your sleeves. A dry top, at least, has a >semblance of a waist closure in a wide neoprene band that slows cold >water movement up into the torso area. Hello Ralph, Chris Cunningham did a good job of discussing this is his SK article <http://www.seakayakermag.com/oct99/tuiliqs.htm>: "Even though a wet exit is not compatible with the Greenland style, I was curious to know if the loose fit of the neoprene around my torso would provide any warmth if I were in the water. After a wet exit, I was surprised at how much air the tuiliq kept in it when I came to the surface. The air buoyed up around my chest and shoulders and provided a lot of flotation. By tucking the skirt of the tuiliq in between my legs, it provided some thermal protection for my groin and kept water from circulating around my torso. With my legs crossed and hands folded over my chest, I floated comfortably in the water. The seal around my face let only a little air out if I worked my jaw around but, for the most part, the fit was airtight and maintained the air bubble. I'd still recommend wearing a thermal protective layer under the tuiliq, but I was surprised by how much warmth and buoyancy it provided while I was in the water." During a very cold rain in Greenland it was quite comfortable, warm and dry, to kneel on the ground with the tuiliq covering my legs, like a mini bivy sack. I saw a few other paddlers doing this while waiting for some of the events. Perhaps in an emergency, without shelter, this feature could prove very useful. >The tuiliq seems to have a wide temperature range. Richard Nonas, the >sculptor whose exhibit I mentioned is starting this week, wears his >tuiliq right through the summer months here in New York with air >temperatures well into the 90s and water in the 70s. SNIP I think that perhaps it is Richard who has a wide temperature range. I had the pleasure of meeting Richard at Delmarva this year. He was wearing a black tuiliq on a day that I was sweating intensely in a T-shirt. I couldn't imagine wearing even a Goretex tuiliq in hot weather, other than for rolling practice. For cold-weather use, however, they are extremely comfortable. >What worries me with a tuiliq is the sense of entrapment. SNIP >Most sprayskirts will release when you put enough tension >on them as you start rising or falling from your seat. And you always >have the front release strap to pull it away from the rim and pop it >off. I don't believe the tuiliq has such a release strap. SNIP As Debbie mentioned, the shock cord around the hem of the Brooks suit merges at the front to allow adjustment and functions as a grab loop. If anything, I wish the 1/4" shockcord used in the Brooks tuiliq was more substantial. All of my regular neoprene skirts have stout 3/8" shock cord, and combined with the small cockpit opening on my Anas Acuta, they certainly don't release by my body rising up or falling from the seat. In comparison, the Brooks tuiliq releases easily, and even without using the grab loop can be released by peeling the hem of the suit from the coaming. Entrapment is the last thing that comes to my mind when I wear a tuiliq. In fact, without the rubber-band effect of a tight neoprene skirt holding you in place, you might feel as if you are "falling out" of the cockpit the first few times that you capsize. Perhaps your impression of entrapment is from seeing John Heath's video of John Petersen taking several minutes to securely fasten his sealskin tuiliq to the cockpit rim. The traditional sealskin tuiliqs are certainly intended to keep you in the kayak, a much safer prospect than bailing out into freezing water. Greg Stamer Orlando, Florida http://www.magicnet.net/~gstamer/QK.html *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Greg Stamer wrote: > > Ralph Diaz wrote: > > Chris Cunningham did a good job of discussing this is his SK article > <http://www.seakayakermag.com/oct99/tuiliqs.htm>: "Even though a wet exit > is not compatible with the Greenland style, I was curious to know if the > loose fit of the neoprene around my torso would provide any warmth if I > were in the water. After a wet exit, I was surprised at how much air the > tuiliq kept in it when I came to the surface. The air buoyed up around my > chest and shoulders and provided a lot of flotation. By tucking the skirt > of the tuiliq in between my legs, it provided some thermal protection for > my groin and kept water from circulating around my torso. With my legs > crossed and hands folded over my chest, I floated comfortably in the water. > first few times that you capsize. Perhaps your impression of entrapment is > from seeing John Heath's video of John Petersen taking several minutes to > securely fasten his sealskin tuiliq to the cockpit rim. The traditional > sealskin tuiliqs are certainly intended to keep you in the kayak, a much > safer prospect than bailing out into freezing water. Greg, Thanks for sharing the details on how well they would work for getting off a cockpit rim easily and the warmth they can give in the water. I was thinking of the way some one like Peterson practically laces himself into his boat, which does look like it won't come off easily. best, ralph -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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