Warning, long rant. This is not a flame. However, bodily injury and loss of property may occur. > kevin had said: > > << However, it is the height of hubris and self-centeredness to suggest that > your own personal limits ought to apply to any other person, or to assume > that the other person is inadequate in any way for having less limits. >> > Scott then said: > > Uh, am I mistaken, or haven't I seen any number of folks get collectively > hammered by this list for having a different set of "limits" then the rest? > > Scott, I've been on the receiving end of the abuse too. Mostly back-channel, and some of it very impassioned at times. I've almost unsubsribed a few times in the past (not because I was that upset, but because of the accusations of leading others astray). The worst one was a time when I mentioned the importance of _determination_ for those who set their "limits" higher, and for those with lower limits that get into unexpected trouble. Someone from your So Cal state got on my case (mostly because I mentioned determination and newbies in the same post). The sting can sure hurt. For the most part, I share the juicy stuff back-channel now with other hard-core paddlers who understand and are not participating out of "morbid curiosity". This also let's me off the hook with the newbie concerns. Also, it can take a while, but eventually, if you are right, you will be vindicated. My vindication took over a year as far as my "determination post" -- and only just recently. Ralph D posted a gracious note, repeating some of an interview with Hans Linderman, and the importance of determination (and other things). I'm sure Duane saw some good justification in the post too. However, the bulk of what I see on PW suggests a different reality to what you indicate. I'm not disagreeing with you, just suggesting my perception differs vastly from yours. What I see going down are folks collectively questioning what and what isn't safe, for a given level of competency and regional practice - so as to reflect and consider what their standards might be if adjustment is needed or just some confirmation. However, I don't normally recall anyone saying the other person should not do what they are doing or should not have the right to do what they do. Its mostly just folks thinking out loud about their understanding of what common sense and comfort zones might possibly be (such as the PFD debate). Its a free list, and lots of voices and opinions help us reflect upon our own safety standards and equipment provisions. It is just adult conversation. Tricks are for kids. I also truly believe that a paddler's "limits" are often hard to define objectively. By sharing in a mature exchange such as Jackie attempts to keep us (we are a very subjective PW bunch), and with a wide and varied audience and participation level, we all benefit tremendously. I think you and I and even Duane often see things too black and white. PW helps us define some of the gray, if that makes sense (though you probably see PW'ers as often too black and white). I think some of us take ourselves far too seriously. We all need to lighten up a bit at times, both with respect to your jabs at the list, and the list's preoccupation with penultimate safety. I also try to take everything as constructive criticism when it is leveled against me. This is the mature way, and the learning way -- the enlightened way. Some of us on this list need to learn that. But I have no right to tell that to anybody. All I can do is be responsible for myself. By accepting all criticism good or bad (even if it stings for a few days), and by accepting and reflecting graciously even if only 10% of it is valid or 1 out of 10 comments are valid, I will ultimately be the beneficiary. I try as much as possible to do this now, sifting the wheat from the chaff. Gaining true wisdom can be a bit of work and takes a bit more humility than I often can keep pace with. If your post had Duane in mind, in particular, well...Duane can be a pain! He has a unique "notion for the ocean", which has caused a bit of commotion. Here's a few observations about the vexations: 1. If folks didn't care about Duane, they would just ignore him. 2. If he weren't an ambassador for adventure paddling in his locale, by default, there would be less concern indicated by folks who have valid moral concerns for the impression newbies might be left with. I used to be the same way, so voluntarily opted out of teaching new paddlers for many years. 3. Don't pity Duane. He loves to stir the pot and get a reaction out of the list. If he gets cutting remarks back, it is only because of the fact that if you live by the sword you die by the sword as they say. Mr. "Stoker" loves to fan the flames. He loves the tempest I'm sure. I sure do some days. Its part of the nature of adventure paddlers to like being in the middle of a tempest! Duane will be fine - but if he doesn't get what people have been trying to tell him, he probably never will. 4. At least Duane hasn't been accused of getting into kayaking the last couple of years as a cure for a waning libido (at least I didn't see that charge leveled against the list in his recent post with his list of aggravations)... :-) 5. If Duane doesn't want to listen to the many fine and gracious, mature people on this list, he doesn't have to. Listening is an option in life.Accepting your subscription to PW "as a priviledge" is an option to. I do know that good, mature paddlers learn to listen. That is how you become a wise, well-honed paddler. You listen to subtle and not-so-subtle clues around you, you listen for tips about local knowledge of an area you are paddling, and you listen to other paddlers and try to learn at a variety of levels. You constantly update your information, such as listening to mid-day weather reports. Kayaking can teach you so much about life. I fear Duane may be accused of a far worse thing than his hit list included on his "Turkey Post". I fear he may be accused of having no class. That would be a shame. I'm not the kettle calling the pot black. I'm just saying I've been black, I want to get shinny again - not go back to black. Some folks on this list flame too much, but they are the ones that get burnt and blackened. I will not mention any names. I don't always agree with you Scott, but I will always listen; I will always respect the fact that you are in "the trenches" (or is that "troughs") actually teaching folks to paddle out your way, and that your views and perceptions are just as valid as mine. I have my "limits" too on this list, however. They may be different than yours. I don't happen to suffer fools as easily as I used too. I hope we never consider each other as such, as time goes by. BC'in Ya Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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