happy holidays to you paddlewisers, indeed. the list is a wonderful place. here are a few questions and thoughts from Ms. Lowly Rec Boater. i am a rec boater only because i have a physical disability of sorts which makes me need a large cockpit. i bought the beamy perception sierra about 5 weeks ago, have paddled it 8 times (maybe 9, i forget), and am "moving up" to the america, which at 13'" 4" is the length of the acadia discussed here. that's as close to a SK as i am going to get for a while, and that's ok with me as my primary objective is mild water, exercise, and birds, birds, birds (otter, seal, and bat ray sightings gratefully accepted). my husband and i got our BSK certificates with a day-long private lesson in the Oakland Estuary last week. our instructor is, to my mind, the Mr. Miyagi of sea kayaking. about 40ish, nothing fazes him, been thru every kind of kayaking and condition. most people have said, "oh, your [lowly rec] boat is too beamy to roll; you'll never roll that thing, or need to." Mr. Miyagi said, "absolutely you can develop a roll for that boat, if you work at it and believe you can. i can roll a 17-foot undecked canoe in class III rapids. if you are braced in your boat, and if you develop the skills, you can roll your boat". k now what? i believe him. i'll be at rolling class the next time the local kayak-friendly pool is open, jan. 8th. here is the question. it's 50 degrees air temp today and a bit windy, and i don't have a wetsuit. guess what i don't want to do? that's right: kayak. well, i DO want to kayak, but i don't want to go swimming, and i have found that if i "can't" capsize, i am afraid of capsizing, leaning, edging, etc., brace ineffectively,and i paddle badly. i have to be able to safely, confidently capsize and rescue or self-rescue to be free to paddle well. that just seems to be axiomatic to my learning curve. got to call the wetsuit -making lady (at liquidfit.com). so, am i being a wimp, or am i being responsible? i don't really care if i'm being a wimp, btw----all i know is that my intuition is a very valuable guide and i respect its promptings. next time i post about Beginner Kayaker Adventures i'll tell you about the Winchester Mystery House of squirrely waters, and how sometimes it's easier to get your boat up a really steep bank than it is to get yourSELF up. and how We Hate Mud. happy paddling and happy holidays, Ms. Lowly Rec-Boater (kcd) kathleen comalli dillon~friend, mom, wife, musician, violinist, writer, ailurophile extraordinaire ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "We can do no great things; we can only do small things with great love."-Mother Teresa~~"I find a lot of people like chubby 67-year-old girls."-Beverly Sills~~"I care not for a man's religion whose dog and cat are not the better for it."-Abraham Lincoln~~"Prepare to be assimila-----OOOOOoooooo, jelly donuts!"-Homer of Borg~~"I am Boris of Borg. Moose and Squirrel are irrelevant."~~ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Kathleen wrote: -snip- >>here is the question. it's 50 degrees air temp today and a bit windy, and i don't have a wetsuit. guess what i don't want to do? that's right: kayak. well, i DO want to kayak, but i don't want to go swimming, and i have found that if i "can't" capsize, i am afraid of capsizing, leaning, edging, etc., brace ineffectively,and i paddle badly. i have to be able to safely, confidently capsize and rescue or self-rescue to be free to paddle well. that just seems to be axiomatic to my learning curve. got to call the wetsuit -making lady (at liquidfit.com). so, am i being a wimp, or am i being responsible? i don't really care if i'm being a wimp, btw----all i know is that my intuition is a very valuable guide and i respect its promptings.<< -snip- Hi Kathleen, First - you are not a "lowly" anything, so get over it. Even "rec boaters" are allowed to live. And... perhaps "wimpiness" isn't the best scale on which to measure oneself, as it really only counts in relation to *someone else's* over inflated ego as they sneer at you - and is not really of concern to you. While it's a good idea to stay within your limits (I even try to do that - sometimes), and having at least the skill to perform a paddle float re-entry and perhaps an assisted rescue or two (if you're paddling with someone) are pretty important, you don't have to know how to roll right away before you venture into interesting waters. I know many casual paddlers who don't roll. However - in the Bay area, the water is pretty cool, so immersion clothing is important. Do get the wetsuit, and perhaps some fleece insulating layers, and a paddle jacket - and gloves and/or pogies. Someday, when you simply can't get yourself to stay off the water no matter the temperature/conditions, a drysuit may be desired as well. And then there's this... It's quite true that as you develop your skills, you'll feel more confident in varying conditions, and you'll be spending more time on the water - which is a very good thing. For me, and probably for many others, learning to roll gave me the single greatest leap in confidence of any particular safety technique. Having such confidence does much more than just assure you that you can right yourself if you invert. In some ways even more important, it allows you to relax. When you're relaxed, your learning and skill development will accelerate greatly, and overall enjoyment will be heightened. I remember when I couldn't roll, but I was still so crazy about paddling that I went out in conditions well beyond what some might have considered to be my "limits". I would sometimes find myself saying to myself as I paddled madly back to shore, "what kind of an idiot am I anyway?" - and other similar (but more graphic) sentiments. I was fortunate enough to have a pretty good sense of balance, and was able to force myself to relax in spite of myself, so until I learned to roll and began venturing into heavy surf, my only capsizes were done intentionally for practice. Or perhaps it was just dumb luck. Slowly though, this type of irresponsible behavior did build some confidence for me, and I would continue to push myself to the point of the internal "idiot question" again and again. However - when a friend finally gave me a rolling lesson (which turned out to be much easier than I thought it would be), and I practiced it enough to feel pretty confident, the conditions that used to strike terror in me were suddenly just fun play conditions. Having confidence in one's self and assisted rescue skills - and good immersion clothing - are probably the best things to help all other aspects of one's paddling skills. It is the relaxation that comes from confidence on the water that will allow you to develop a fluid and beautiful technique in general. So... let's not have any of this "lowly rec boater" and "wimp" stuff. Instead - just think of yourself as a "gnarly boater babe" in the making, and enjoy whatever type of paddling you love to do. Happy holidays and beyond to all! Melissa *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
kcd wrote: > well, i DO want to kayak, but i don't want to go swimming, > and i have found that if i "can't" capsize, i am afraid of capsizing, > leaning, edging, etc., brace ineffectively,and i paddle badly. i have to > be able to safely, confidently capsize and rescue or self-rescue to be > free to paddle well. that just seems to be axiomatic to my learning curve. ...I believe this is a universal reaction -- I certainly 'fess up to it! Accordingly, I believe it's important that people learn to generally develop lower body flexibility, and to edge & brace, early in the game. Bob V *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Kathleen, You are definitely not being a wimp. I agree with the reply that says you need to get the wet-suit or maybe even a dry-suit. I bought some HYDO-SKINS from Northwest River Supplies. I have a farmer john (that's the suit with no sleeves) and a separate long-sleeve top. The HYDRO-SKINS have a very thin neoprene outer layer and fleece layer on the inside. One layer of HYDO-SKIN is supposed to have warmth retention about midway between 2mm and 3 mm neoprene wet-suits. By using both the farmer john and the top I get a little less than 3 mm equivalent on my legs and arms, but get 4mm-5mm equivalent on the critical torso area. The fleece inner layer makes them a lot more comfortable than the all neoprene wetsuit. You might want to check with you instructor to see how he thinks they would do in you area. I am pretty sure that just one layer would not be enough for the majority of you water temps, but having two pieces allows you more flexibility to dress comfortably when the water is not quite so cold, but still too cold for just swimsuit. One thing you said does concern me a little. You talked about the air temp as a limiting factor. I believe you really should just forget about air temp and concentrate on dressing for the water temp. You almost never underdress for the air temp since you feel it before you start paddling, but it is very easy to underdress for the water temp. Unlike hiking were you adjust your clothing so that you are not sweating (in order to prevent evaporative cooling) you really need to be sweating in your paddling gear. The water is almost always cooler than the air and even at the same temp the heat is pulled from you body much much faster when you are in the water. Everybody has a different criteria for what to wear for a given water temp. Talk to your instructor and some other paddler's he might suggest to get a starting point. I have heard that being able to float and swim for 30 minutes without starting to shiver is a good test. You would have much more actual survial time than 30 minutes, and 30 minutes without shivering means you would be able to maintain enough warmth to stay functional (ie be able to help) even through a pretty long assisted rescue or several self rescues attempts. I admit that I have not tested my gear for a full 30 minutes. As the water temp gets lower you finally reach a point where wearing enough insulation for this 30 min test means its just too uncomfortable to paddle. At that point you stop paddlling or recognize the greater risk and select you paddling destinations with that in mind. My current thinking kind of goes like this: 1. Water temp > 70 deg F - Dress for the comfort in the boat 2. Water temp 65-70 deg F - Light to mid weight poly-pro bottoms and top under waterproof jacket (a paddling jacket or dry-top) and waterproof paddling pants 3. Water temp > 60-65 deg F - Hydro-skin farmer john with mid-weight poly-pro top under paddling jacket OR 3mm farmer john wetsuit lightweight poly top and paddling jacket. 4. Water temp < 50-60 deg F - Hydo-sin farmer john, mid-weight poly pro top, long-sleeve hydo-skin top and paddling jacket. (Can Add light-weight poly pro bottoms under farmer john for more warmth in legs) OR 3 mm full wetsuit and paddling jacket. Note: Closer to 50 you might want heavier poly-pro under hydor skins or add light-weight poly-pro under 3mm wetsuit. 5. Water temp < 50 deg F - Dry suit with appropriate insulation for 30 min swim test. From what I have read this would require something like Polartec 200 weight tops and bottoms for the 40-50 deg F range Note: I have never actually paddled in these conditions but set this as a requirement for some of the trips that I was considering (ie, I was not going to make those trips unless I got a dry-suit first) I am probably on the overdressed side compared to most paddlers, but since I spend most of my time in pretty warm water I feel unprepared when I get in cold water and therefore add a little extra warmth. Some paddlers I have talked to say they use wetsuits down to the 45 deg F level and some say they do not go to any kind of wetsuit until the water temp is < 60 def F. Since you lose lots of heat through your head, carrying a neoprene hood or skull cap is great protection if you find that you can not get back in the kayak. You need to keep it own your person or very quickly accessible on the kayak (not in a hatch) so that you can get to it and put it on while you are still in the water. They are also real nice to have when you start to practice your rolling or just get caught in a rain shower. Hopefully some other paddlerwisers will let you and me know if anything I suggested is way out of line. I am not putting any of this out as gospet. It's just how I do things based on reading books and talking to people whom I consider safety oriented paddlers. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. 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At 09:08 PM 12/26/00 EST, MJAkayaker_at_aol.com wrote: >Hi Kathleen, > >You are definitely not being a wimp. I agree with the reply that says you >need to get the wet-suit or maybe even a dry-suit. I bought some HYDO-SKINS >from Northwest River Supplies. I have a farmer john (that's the suit with no >sleeves) and a separate long-sleeve top. The HYDRO-SKINS have a very thin (snip) It sounds good, but Kathleen, like me, is a larger paddler. I would very much like to wear hydroskins, but the simple fact is that the biggest size NRS sells is way to small for me, and, I suspect, for her. The only thing available for me in commercial wet suits is the NRS Grizzley, which is really too heavy for anything but the times when its really needed. Besides, the one I have doesn't fit well. Too small. Custom wet suit time. Dry suits? Forget it. Not available for people my size. I suppose I could get a custom job made for a cost in excess of a thousand dollars, but it's easier to just not go kayaking when I need that much protection. > >One thing you said does concern me a little. You talked about the air temp >as a limiting factor. I believe you really should just forget about air temp >and concentrate on dressing for the water temp. You almost never underdress Again, that sounds good, but for the larger paddler, you do have to have some concern about dressing for the air temperature as well as the water temperature, since you can overheat so easily -- especially if you don't have a roll for rotational cooling. (more snip) > >I am probably on the overdressed side compared to most paddlers, but since I >spend most of my time in pretty warm water I feel unprepared when I get in >cold water and therefore add a little extra warmth. Some paddlers I have >talked to say they use wetsuits down to the 45 deg F level and some say they For my own purposes -- and, ultimately, I'm the one that has to bear the results of my decision -- I tend to use the rule of 100, maybe modified a bit for circumstances. In other words, I usually wear a wet suit if the combination air temperature and water temperature combined adds up to less than 100. I may bend the rule a little each way depending on conditions. If it gets to less than about 75 or 80, in conditions that I know are going to be anything but purely benign and I know I'm going to be within walking distance or depth of shore, I don't bother with a wet suit since I'm going to be doing my kayaking by computer. But I can't concieve of wearing a wet suit in conditions that are, say, 60 water temp and 80 air temp. I'd cook; I couldn't paddle a mile. No doubt the hypothermia nazis are going to jump all over me for this, but, as I said, it's my decision; I have to be the one that has to balance the risks. I've had cold water hypothermia -- from a nonboating related activity, by the way -- and have a pretty good idea of the risks I'm taking. But I'm the one that has to balance things out. Your mileage may vary. If so, good. You have assessed your needs and responded to them in the way you feel best. -- Wes *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Wes Boyd wrote: > It sounds good, but Kathleen, like me, is a larger paddler. I would very > much like to wear hydroskins, but the simple fact is that the biggest size > NRS sells is way to small for me, and, I suspect, for her. The only thing > available for me in commercial wet suits is the NRS Grizzley, which is > really too heavy for anything but the times when its really needed. > Besides, the one I have doesn't fit well. Too small. Custom wet suit time. > Dry suits? Forget it. Not available for people my size.SNIPPED > No doubt the hypothermia nazis are going to jump all over me for this, but, > as I said, it's my decision; I have to be the one that has to balance the > risks. I've had cold water hypothermia -- from a nonboating related > activity, by the way -- and have a pretty good idea of the risks I'm > taking. But I'm the one that has to balance things out. Other factors are at play that may be to your benefit. Heavier people have more layers of fat on them that DO reduce their risk of hypothermia. Skinnier people are more prone. The most amazing case of survival I know of involves a ship that went down off the coast of New Jersey in the early 1990s in near winter conditions. One portly fellow, the cook who apparently was his own best customer, donned oil slickers over a wool coat and pants, and went into the water (wearing a PFD). He floated for almost a day before being found. Little loss of core body temperature. I don't know if toes or hands suffered any. He did have those extra layers of wool and the waterproof outer layers did reduce the amount of water exchange that would have robbed him of bodily heat. What you may want to do to up your chances in the conditions you describe is to get a modicum of protection. The Hydroskin stuff is amazingly stretchy. I don't believe it has near the neoprene equivalency stated earlier by someone (I don't know what NRS claims for it), but it certainly is better than nothing. If you can't wear a full suit or even a farmer john, is it possible to wear a vest, i.e. anything to give you some level of protection. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
timbre_at_best.com wrote: i am a > rec boater only because i have a physical disability of sorts which makes > me need a large cockpit. > > k now what? i believe him. i'll be at rolling class the next time the > local kayak-friendly pool is open, jan. 8th. > Kathleen, don't hesitate to ask this group any questions you may have on outfitting your boat to optimize your chances of success- an amazing wealth of experience here, gabriel *************************************************** -- Gabriel L Romeu http://studiofurniture.com furniture, mixed media http://members.xoom.com/gabrielR a daily observation, photograph ± text http://studiofurniture.com/paint paintings, etchings, photographs and objects *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 12/27/00 7:48:38 AM, boydwe_at_dmci.net writes: << It sounds good, but Kathleen, like me, is a larger paddler. I would very much like to wear hydroskins, but the simple fact is that the biggest size NRS sells is way to small for me, and, I suspect, for her. The only thing available for me in commercial wet suits is the NRS Grizzley, which is really too heavy for anything but the times when its really needed. Besides, the one I have doesn't fit well. Too small. Custom wet suit time. Dry suits? Forget it. Not available for people my size. I suppose I could get a custom job made for a cost in excess of a thousand dollars, but it's easier to just not go kayaking when I need that much protection. >> If you need custom stuff Rapidstyle will do it and do it well for about an extra $100. She does fuzzy rubber, not drysuits. See http://www.rapidstyle.com/ I'll testify to how good her stuff it. She is a local to DC but can use measurements you send. Joan Spinner *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Wes wrote: >>>>>>But I can't conceive of wearing a wet suit in conditions that are, say, 60 water temp and 80 air temp. I'd cook; I couldn't paddle a mile. No doubt the hypothermia nazis are going to jump all over me for this, but, as I said, it's my decision; I have to be the one that has to balance the risks. I've had cold water hypothermia -- from a nonboating related activity, by the way -- and have a pretty good idea of the risks I'm taking. But I'm the one that has to balance things out. Your mileage may vary. If so, good. You have assessed your needs and responded to them in the way you feel best. <<<<<<<<< Those with a relatively high volume to surface area ratio (big folks) are more likely to suffer hyperthermia than hypothermia and need to dress accordingly. Not only do they have more mass to cool but because volume increases by the cube and the (cooling) area in contact with the outside temperature only increases by the square they can't dump heat as fast. Also fat is a better insulator than skin and bone. One chubby guy taking part in a hypothermia test stayed in cold (50 degrees F. I believe) water for six or eight hours. Early on he cooled down a few degrees and then stabilized at the slightly lower temperature so that the test was ended after the six or eight hours not because he cooled to the 95 degrees where testers always stopped the test at but for some other reasons not related to the test. I tend to overheat due to a high metabolism but this also puts me at a greater risk of hypothermia than the average person (and the second time I was ever in a kayak I managed to quickly cool down to 94.5 degrees). I still won't dress for the low 50's water temperature around here in the summer because I can get so overheated and don't relish being strangled by my dry suit or becoming salt encrusted from rotary cooling. As Wes says, "it's my decision". I realize someday I may pay for that decision with my life and I'll accept that as the risk I'm willing to take to be comfortable until then. Until I had learned to roll reliably and developed self rescue skills I was not a paddler that was comfortable too far from shore. I'm not suggesting anybody else base there own decision on anything I say or do. Think it out for yourself. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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