ralph diaz wrote: > I am not arguing with any of what has been reported. I am taking the 6 > points above as givens. Am just wondering if such facts may want us to > reconsider the cold-water garments we use, their materials, and how we > use them. I re-quote myself to make clear that for purposes of the discussion/rethinking I was stipulating as givens the minimal amount of water entry stated by several individuals. I think there have been some very useful comments made. one of the most useful was that from Rex Robertson where he says that the secret to comfort/utility of a dry suit is getting the right cut of the latex gaskets that will be comfortable but still keep water out. I want to make it clear that I am not advocating not using cold-water protection. Far from it. Just wondering whether we can do things like what Rex points out about gaskets. Or his classic advice about roto-cooling, i.e. cool-off rolling if you are wearing a drysuit in high air temperatures (or if you don't have a reliable roll, just do some upper body dips while hanging on to the bow of a friend's kayak). However, I still take exception with Kevin about wearing a dry suit at half mast (i.e. the top part off or the zipper open) while on the water. Doing so counts too much on the smarts of the paddler and sea conditions remaining calm or, when conditions suddenly turn bad, having enough time to get the dry suit back on properly or not getting caught half way into it and capsizing. He says "You are welcome to never follow my suggestions if you wish, but I think the information should be out there for discriminating paddlers to at least consider." He also says "Ralph, you are very obstinate in your thinking." Perhaps I am. My obstinance with this is that the information was written in a national magazine, Sea Kayaker, that many people take as gospel. I am not certain how discerning or discriminating a beginner or intermediate paddler may be in reading the advice about going half-mast in a dry suit while on the water no matter how calm the conditions. I don't believe there were enough caveats attached neither in the article nor in his followup to my Letter To The Editor regarding this. Kevin is a world class paddler and instructor; there aren't all that many around. What works for him, a recognized expert, and which he advises a general public to consider, may not likely work for the least common denominator paddler who is reading it and has a fraction of Kevin's skill level. How many Sea Kayaker readers, or even the more select group of us on Paddlewise, could do what Kevin can such as while capsized, manage to release a neck ring holding the latex neck gasket open while all the time hanging on to paddle and then when completing the task smoothly rolling up? Remember this was in a general piece on dry suits in a national magazine not some esoteric discussion in some internal BCU instructors communique or a more select publication like Anorak with mainly discerning readers. Kevin and Sea Kayaker are very lucky that Kevin's piece appeared well after Jack Martin's friend, Rhino, perished in calm conditions on a Great Lake in Autumn while apparently paddling with his dry suit zipper open. Any smart lawyer who could establish that Rhino may have read the article would have had a slam-dunk case against both Kevin and the magazine. I still maintain, with un-apologetic obstinance, what I wrote in my letter to Sea Kayaker, namely, if you are going to wear a dry suit, for heaven's sake, wear the suit dry. I find it interesting that Sea Kayaker printed my letter and that of another individual who had accidently left his newly added relief zipper open and had a devil of an experience after a capsize. Perhaps they may have had second thoughts about the article. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Ralph, sorry it took me a few days to respond. Busy weekend on the water, and you know how it goes.... On 01-Dec-2000 ralph diaz wrote: > However, I still take exception with Kevin about wearing a dry suit at > half mast (i.e. the top part off or the zipper open) while on the > water. Doing so counts too much on the smarts of the paddler and sea > conditions remaining calm This seems to be a religious difference now. Should we allow for beginning kayakers to be complete idiots and teach only watered down theories so that they have no chance of accidently harming themselves? Or do we teach people more advanced ideas and the methods for learning how to practice these ideas and even to know when they have attained to necessary level of skill/judgment to do so. At either end of the spectrum, the logic breaks down into absurdity. For instance, if one's primary concern is that paddlers not drown or die of hypothermia, then we shouldn't advise *anyone* to learn kayaking. Conversely, if one apriori expects all beginners to have expert level judgment, then it would do no harm to recommend that people try surfing monster waves or make long dangerous crossings, etc... There is balance between these two things, and we seem to have differing viewpoints. We do not have to agree on where this balance lies. My feelings are that experts kayakers also read Sea Kayaker, and I like to give them good ideas too. We don't want to bore the experts away from reading the magazine just because every article is written to the lowest common denominator of beginning kayakers. In everything that I write, I try to put in a mixture of advanced ideas and beginning/intermediate advice. or, when conditions suddenly turn bad, having > enough time to get the dry suit back on properly or not getting caught > half way into it and capsizing. He says "You are welcome to never > follow my suggestions if you wish, but I think the information should be > out there for discriminating paddlers to at least consider." He also > says "Ralph, you are very obstinate in your thinking." > I apologize for being kind of rude. I really regret saying this, it was written in the heat of the moment and I didn't edit the message carefully enough before sending it. Sorry. > Perhaps I am. My obstinance with this is that the information was > written in a national magazine, Sea Kayaker, that many people take as > gospel. I am saddened if people take articles in sea kayaker as "gospel". It is a dangerous thing to do in any outdoor sport, where genuine prophets are few and far between, and where techniques and ideas change rapidly. I am not certain how discerning or discriminating a beginner or > intermediate paddler may be in reading the advice about going half-mast > in a dry suit while on the water no matter how calm the conditions. I > don't believe there were enough caveats attached neither in the article > nor in his followup to my Letter To The Editor regarding this. I disagree, naturally. But certainly your letter helped clarify your point and hopefully makes readers a little more discriminating. It is a good thing when advice in the techniques section is questioned. Debate is good, and I appreciate your criticism. Kevin > is a world class paddler and instructor; there aren't all that many > around. What works for him, a recognized expert, and which he advises a > general public to consider, may not likely work for the least common > denominator paddler who is reading it and has a fraction of Kevin's > skill level. How many Sea Kayaker readers, or even the more select > group of us on Paddlewise, could do what Kevin can such as while > capsized, manage to release a neck ring holding the latex neck gasket > open while all the time hanging on to paddle and then when completing > the task smoothly rolling up? I would say that it is not really all that difficult if you are willing to practice it. Anyone who regularly practices hanging out upside down in kayak could easily handle this. It just isn't that difficult of a physical thing to do, and I am sure you could learn to do this yourself if you tried. If you can pop a sprayskirt and wet exit out of a kayak, you can also learn to pop a neckring first. The only difficult part is maintaining the presence of mind to not panic, and even this is not hard to avoid given some practice. I have heard very few legitimate excuses why someone can never learn how to remain calm while upside down. The initial stages of dispelling panic can be accomplished in five minutes, which is what I do with my students as the first thing before even learning the forward stroke. If someone isn't willing to try to do this, then wearing a neck ring, or unzipping a drysuit is not something they should consider doing. Remember this was in a general piece on > dry suits in a national magazine not some esoteric discussion in some > internal BCU instructors communique or a more select publication like > Anorak with mainly discerning readers. > Actually, what really appeals to me about Sea Kayaker is the high quality of articles, including advanced techniques. Without this, then Sea Kayaker would be just like Paddler magazine, or Canoe and Kayak, which are barely worth the paper they are printed on. I don't think the advice of what to do when conditions are temporarily too hot for a drysuit is esoteric in the slightest way. How many people have died from hypothermia in a kayaking accident? At least with my technique, it is possible to achieve a full drysuit functionality without having the land on shore. If someone chose to put their drysuit in a hatch because it was too hot in the morning, they are screwed unless they can somehow land on shore to put it on should conditions require it later. > Kevin and Sea Kayaker are very lucky that Kevin's piece appeared well > after Jack Martin's friend, Rhino, perished in calm conditions on a > Great Lake in Autumn while apparently paddling with his dry suit zipper > open. Any smart lawyer who could establish that Rhino may have read the > article would have had a slam-dunk case against both Kevin and the > magazine. > I vaguely remember this happening, but I do not remember the exact details. Can you fill me in on the specifics? Also, I don't think this would be a "slam dunk" case, since kayaking is inherently a risky sport. > I still maintain, with un-apologetic obstinance, what I wrote in my > letter to Sea Kayaker, namely, if you are going to wear a dry suit, for > heaven's sake, wear the suit dry. I find it interesting that Sea > Kayaker printed my letter and that of another individual who had > accidently left his newly added relief zipper open and had a devil of an > experience after a capsize. Perhaps they may have had second thoughts > about the article. > I do not believe this is case, based on my discussions with Chris Cunningham. We do agree that this is a risky thing to do, even if it quite appropriate and viable given certain circumstances. The only way for other paddlers to really learn their own good judgment on whether it is viable for them is to hear all sides of the story. This is why they printed the letters, and again, this is one thing that makes Sea Kayaker such a great magazine... this willingness to debate the fine points and the realization that there is no cut-and-dried black-or-white answer to a lot of kayaking questions. I am tempted to call Sea Kayaker the most scientific of kayaking mags. My final advice to anyone who has bothered to read this far... the only safe kayaker is the one who's level of judgment exceeds their level of physical skill. Kevin ps thanks for the world class paddler/instructor part. It made me blush, and I don't really believe you either. I am just a regular guy who likes to teach kayaking and has developed a knack for doing so effectively on the water and on the net. ---------------------------------- Kevin Whilden Your Planet Earth http://www.yourplanetearth.org E-Mail: kevin_at_yourplanetearth.org ph: (206) 788-0281 fax:(206) 788-0284 ---------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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