In a message dated 12/1/00 3:03:28 PM, jaf30_at_cornell.edu writes: << Anyone want to take a stab defining an "intermediate paddler". >> I'm a fan of the BCU 3 star being the definition of an Intermediate. A solid 3 Star should be able to handle any non-expert conditions. Jed *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 12/1/00 1:22:03 PM, LedJube_at_aol.com writes: << I'm a fan of the BCU 3 star being the definition of an Intermediate. A solid 3 Star should be able to handle any non-expert conditions >> Though I'm tempted to agree with this I think there truly are not that many paddlers who can pass 3 star assessment for one reason or another. As most people will never be close enough to big water to think about a 4 star, 3 star really is the highest level most inland paddlers will reach. Maybe it would be better, if we are going to define levels to make it a "can do this, can do this, etc. definition that we might actually be able to use. This is an ongoing discussion both here on PW and in our club. We have a few 3 star and fewer 4 star paddlers but that is because some don't want to bother being certified. But the VAST majority of paddlers have been paddling 2, 3, 4 years and though they can generally handle themselves in the majority of circumstances they would find themselves in on club paddles they might be able to pass the 2 star assessment. They may well see themselves as intermediate padders because they are measuring themselves against the even newer paddlers or the ones who just don't get out all that often. The following is the way we rate skills directly from the newsletter: First Timers: for those who have never paddled before. Beginners: for those who have paddled some, taken classes, or been on short (up to 4-mile) trips and are able to do a wet exit and paddle float reentry. Advanced Beginners: for those who have been on longer trips (up to 10 miles, full day outings), have some experience with varying conditions such as winds, and waves, and have good rescue and group-paddling skills. Intermediate Paddlers: for those who are comfortable on longer trips (more than 10 miles), can maintain a steady pace for extended periods, are comfortable with open water crossings of 2+ miles, can handle a variety of water conditions, and have strong self- and group-rescue skills. This yardstick we can agree on as a club. When I went to a skills workshop and we were asked to self rate most called themselves advanced beginners and I knew many of them were better than I was. By the above definition I was an intermediate paddler. I was amazed because I really had no other criteria than the CPA rating. I wonder if developing a rating system that really helps people understand their strengths and limitations by listing the skills in a simple form might not help both formal and informal groups judge the conditions and paddlers. I'd like to see some work on lists of skills that address local conditions developed. There should only be a few general categories with additions to special local conditions. Skill levels in our club don't even address surf. I don't know if the criteria used for Duane's trip defined what intermediate was and if surf was addressed if there was a definition. I might chicken out on any paddle that requires surf lands because I've ended up picking sand out of my ears for 3 days after a few of those. Even gentle surf upsets me especially trying to land without getting creamed. I'm just too stiff to get out fast enough. I could easily be the one being brushed off as friends laughed at me as I spat sand out of my mouth. Wouldn't be the first time. Joan Spinner *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
JSpinner_at_aol.com wrote: > Maybe it would be better, if we are going to define levels to make it a > "can do this, can't do that," etc. definition that we might actually be able to > use. [edited some - DK] > This is an ongoing discussion both here on PW and in our club. [snip] > The following is the way we rate skills directly from the newsletter: > First Timers: for those who have never paddled before. > Beginners: for those who have paddled some, taken classes, or been on short > (up to 4-mile) trips and are able to do a wet exit and paddle float reentry. > Advanced Beginners: for those who have been on longer trips (up to 10 > miles, full day outings), have some experience with varying conditions such > as winds, and waves, and have good rescue and group-paddling skills. > Intermediate Paddlers: for those who are comfortable on longer trips (more > than 10 miles), can maintain a steady pace for extended periods, are > comfortable with open water crossings of 2+ miles, can handle a variety of > water conditions, and have strong self- and group-rescue skills. The labeling game is one that can be played forever. I like the **kind** of system detailed here because it is operationally based. However, it needs some more levels, because the ability to handle breaking waves (whether in surf or over open water) is a critical skill for many crossings (at least during strong winds against opposing current here in the Pacific Northwest). In fact, being able to handle breaking seas (even small ones) is such an important skill for survival I wonder if it should not be specified in Joan's club's "Intermediate" classification. I appreciate that sloppy breaking seas are not common on many trips, but having the ability to handle the occasional wave adds a big margin of safety. Kind of like having an emergency brake as well as conventional brakes on a car. In addition, having a reliable roll is another threshold which separates rescue options, and that should be in this system, also, I believe. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 10:33 AM 12/1/00 -0500, LedJube_at_aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 12/1/00 3:03:28 PM, jaf30_at_cornell.edu writes: > ><< Anyone want to take a stab defining an "intermediate paddler". >> > >I'm a fan of the BCU 3 star being the definition of an Intermediate. A solid >3 Star should be able to handle any non-expert conditions. I was discussing this with someone back channel and mostly agree. However, the BCU 3 star is a prerequisite for the coaching series so not only does one have to know how to do all the skills effectively but they have to be done according to the BCU standard because it's the last test before coach certification and they want the skills *taught* the BCU way. Basically, I'm saying that there are requirements for passing a Star 3 test that I don't think are necessary to be deemed an "intermediate". For example, I don't think a bow rudder turn and a hanging draw aren't really necessary to handle any non-expert conditions, though a bombproof roll would certainly be a valuable skill, even though it's not a 3 star requirement. Can you guess which skills I failed when I took my 3 star test? Although my bow rudder turns and hanging draw were "effective", they weren't done according to the BCU 3 star "standard" so I wasn't given a passing grade. In fact, on the hanging draw I was failed because I wasn't looking in the direction of the draw and my paddle wasn't vertical enough. Even though I was effectively drawing sideways on the move, I hadn't demonstrated the skills in the manner in which they would want them taught. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> JSpinner_at_aol.com wrote: >>>>> > Maybe it would be better, if we are going to define levels to make it a "can do this, can't do that," etc. definition that we might actually be able to use. <descriptions snipped> <<<<<< To which Dave Kruger responded: >>>> The labeling game is one that can be played forever. I like the **kind** of system detailed here because it is operationally based. However, it needs some more levels, because the ability to handle breaking waves (whether in surf or over open water) is a critical skill for many crossings (at least during strong winds against opposing current here in the Pacific Northwest). In fact, being able to handle breaking seas (even small ones) is such an important skill for survival I wonder if it should not be specified in Joan's club's "Intermediate" classification. I appreciate that sloppy breaking seas are not common on many trips, but having the ability to handle the occasional wave adds a big margin of safety. Kind of like having an emergency brake as well as conventional brakes on a car. In addition, having a reliable roll is another threshold which separates rescue options, and that should be in this system, also, I believe.<<<< > > I agree that having a checklist is a good thing, as it helps individuals measure their own progress against a list of consensus-derived parameters. Although I'm not familiar with the BCU system, I gather that the various BCU levels are closely tied to a *very particular* way of performing the listed skills. In the world of whitewater, there have been scales devised for rating the difficulty of rivers and for rating the skill level of paddlers. The Keel Hauler Canoe Club's web site lists both river point scales and paddler point scales. See http://pages.prodigy.net/keelhauler/khcc/kh.htm and click on "Self Rating System" and "River Ratings" on the left. It is interesting to note that there are no labels (novice through expert) associated with the point systems, but it allows a paddler to (sort of) measure their skills against rivers that they might want to paddle. One advantage of the point system concept is that it allows for weaknesses in some categories being compensated for superior skills in others. I'm not sure if such a point system exists for sea kayaking, though I remember reading something about a Tsunami Ranger point system, though I'd imagine that such a rating system would not be applicable to general sea kayaking. The one thing that's lacking in any rating system that I've seen is assessing a paddler's judgement skills. There have been many discussions on this list about issues pertaining to paddler judgement, and these seem to be the topics that generate the most heated discussions. Does it make sense to posit that a paddler that exibits good judgement (however that may be defined) can be considered to be a 'better' paddler - all other things being equal (but are they ever equal?) - than a paddler without good judgement? Good judgement can be learned. In a vicarious mode, this forum is a good resource for learning good judgement. Experiential learning is perhaps a better teacher of good judgement, provided that one does not get too big a dose of learning all at once. Watching paddlers perform harder skills tells a lot about the paddler. Efficient moves combined with a relaxed posture (making it look easy) show mastery of the skill. A wide-eyed, frantic paddling style indicates that the paddler is a bit lower on the ladder - though the paddler is to be commended for pushing the envelope, which is how new skills are learned. Should a label require that a person can do the skill, or should the person be able to do the skill effortlessly to earn the label? I think this aspect is where people tend to label themselves at a higher (or sometimes lower) skill level than they really are. Clubs that offer a wide variety of trips need some sort of rating system. Joan has shared her club's rating system - any others care to comment? The two local sea kayaking clubs I belong to don't have rating systems, and tend to operate in a mode where the trip leader questions interested participants. A good friend of mine often comments that people who claim to have 20 years of paddling experience are not necessarily good paddlers, as they may have experienced one year of paddling 20 times over :-) Erik Sprenne who showed bad judgement many years ago by signing up for an intermediate whitewater clinic as his first formal instruction in the sport *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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