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From: Paul Hollerbach <paulhollerbach_at_netzero.net>
subject: [Paddlewise] Kayaks for kids
Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 08:48:03 -0500
Chesapeake Light Craft also has a kid's kayak, see

http://www.clcboats.com/



Ciao,



~~Paul H.
http://hometown.aol.com/paulholler/FirstattemptPH.html


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From: Matt Broze <mkayaks_at_oz.net>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Kayaks for kids
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 19:56:59 -0800
Dave Williams <dave_at_paddleasia.com> asked:

>>>>>.Does anyone know of a kayak that's suitable for a small 5 year old?
What
about a small, short paddle?<<<<<<


Stearn's little inflatable kayak the IK-86 (7-0 x28") might be just the
ticket. It is for someone 50 to 110 pounds and comes with a small kids sized
paddle. The paddle isn't much to speak of but I have been impressed with the
similarly designed but bigger IK116 (9-8 x 33") inflatable kayak that fits
me. It paddled a whole lot better than many of the little recreational
kayaks I was trying out at this years West Coast Sea Kayaking Symposium and
was quite comfortable to sit in. It tracked okay with the fin but still
turns on a dime. The IK86 costs $199.95 which also beats the pants off most
kids sized kayaks on price too. It would be easy to ship to you as well.

STEARNS INC:  P.O.Box 1498, St. Cloud, MN 56302   (800)697-5801
(320)252-1642  fax:(320)252-4425  www.stearnsinc.com  stearns_at_stearnsnet.com

Other child's kayaks you might consider:

EDDYLINE KAYAKS:Tom Derrer  (factory: 15466 Ashten Rd., Burlington, WA
98233   (360) 757-2300  fax:(360)757-2302   www.eddyline.com
eddyline_at_halcyon.com    store:1019 Q. Av., Cap Sante Marina, Anacortes, WA
98221   (360)299-2300) makes the Skimmer (12-6 x 22"), or its plastic
version the Aquaterra/Perception Umiak (12-3 x 21")

PERCEPTION: 111 Kayaker Way,  P.O. Box 8002, Easley, SC  29641(?42)
(864)859-7518,  fax:(864)855-5995  (800)262-0268 (800)59KAYAK
www.kayaker.com e-mail:mktg_at_kayaker.com

ENGLEHART PRODUCTS:Rick   (1261 Bobbitt Rd., Euclid, OH  44132
(877)790-9912  fax:(216)732-9927) makes the Episea (14-4 x 20.5")

WILDERNESS SYSTEMS: P.O.Box 4339, Archdale, NC  27263,  (336)434-7470
fax:(336)434-6912   cservice_at_wildsys.com     www.wildsys.com
info_at_youcanpaddle.com  www.youcanpaddle.com makes the Poquito (12-0 x 20.5")
and Piccolo (13-5 x20")

AQUADYNAMIC WATERCRAFT:Bruce Lord   Box 175, Wabamun, Alberta T0E 2K0
Canada   (780)892-3392  fax:(780)892-4920  blord_at_telusplanet.net
www.aquadynamic.com makes a Cadet II and Sea Cadet both (11-3 x 20")

WEST SIDE KAYAK SHOP:Doug Bushnell      7661 Tonawanda Creek Rd., Lockport,
NY  14094   (716) 434-5755  has or once had a Baby Otter (9-8 x 22") child's
kayak

SIMON RIVER SPORTS (SRS):Lou & Karen Lukanovic (formerly Canoes Beaumier
Ltee. near Montreal, Quebec, Canada   toll free(877)529-2518
info_at_kayakit.com   www.kayakit.com has announced their intention of making a
kids trainer called the Skipper (I don't have the dimensions yet--okay I
just found them 13-7 x 19.25")

OLD TOWN CANOE CO.:  58 Middle St., Old Town, ME  04468  (800)595-4400
(207) 827-5513    fax:(207)827-2779  www.otccanoe.com
email:quhl39a_at_prodigy.com  has a Loon 86 (8-6 x22") for children.

NIMBUS/RAINFOREST DESIGNS LTD:Steve Schleicher   #6-9903  240th St., Albion,
BC, Canada  V0M 1B0  (604)467-9932  fax:(604)467-8890  www.nimbuskayaks.com
sschleic_at_direct.ca
used to make a child's kayak called the Sprite (10-5 x21") back in the
1980's (note their present "Sprite" (9-9 x28") is not the same model.

NECKY KAYAKS LTD: Mike Neckar    1100 Riverside Rd., Abbotsford, BC, V2S 7P1
Canada   (604)850-1206  fax (604)850-3197  www.necky.com  once made a kid's
trainer back (13-8 x20") back in the 1980's (I had one for a while for my
kids).

Matt Broze
http://www.marinerkayaks.com



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From: John Fereira <jaf30_at_cornell.edu>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Kayaks for kids
Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2000 07:51:41 -0500
At 07:56 PM 12/1/00 -0800, Matt Broze wrote:
>Dave Williams <dave_at_paddleasia.com> asked:
>
>>>>>>.Does anyone know of a kayak that's suitable for a small 5 year old?
>What
>about a small, short paddle?<<<<<<

Matt posts a great list of possibilities.   I notice that there are no Mariner
kayaks on the list.   I just wanted to say that I admire a kayak designer
that recognizes other vendors and tries to put someone in the right
kayak for that person rather than just trying to sell one of their own.
It makes me want to do business with that kind of person.

Another possibility would be to build your own kids kayak (with the help
of the kid).   Pygmy makes a Goldeneye 10, a 10' long 17" wide boat
that only weighs 14 pounds.   I don't know if it's available in plans form
but any other S&G boat could be scaled down to kid size and would make
a great father/son project.  



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From: Dave Kruger <dkruger_at_pacifier.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Kayaks for kids
Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2000 09:14:05 -0800
John Fereira wrote:

> >Dave Williams <dave_at_paddleasia.com> asked:

> >>>>>>.Does anyone know of a kayak that's suitable for a small 5 year old?
> >What about a small, short paddle?<<<<<<

> Another possibility would be to build your own kids kayak (with the help
> of the kid).   Pygmy makes a Goldeneye 10, a 10' long 17" wide boat
> that only weighs 14 pounds.  

I've seen these Pygmy boats, and aside from the building experience, they are
lighter than equivalent composite or plastic boats -- a plus if the little one
is to carry it.

-- 
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR

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From: Rob Dee <plz_at_swbell.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Kayaks for kids
Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2000 23:06:17 -0600
On 12/1/00 Dave Williams asked:

"Does anyone know of a kayak that's suitable for a small 5 year old?
What
about a small, short paddle"?

Dear Dave,

I saw a mom and small son that I would guess to be in the 6 to 8 year
old range having a heck of a good time on Town Lake a few months back.
The mom was standing in waist high water and had a tether line attached
to a "Poco" by Ocean Kayak. She would let him go out about 15 ft. or so
and haul him back. The little guy was having the time of his life and as
I put in and paddled out I gave him a thumbs up and got back the biggest
grin I have seen in ages!

If you go to:  www.padd;ing.net/Reviews/Kayaks.phtml
You can see reviews of several smaller kayaks some of which are suitable
for the age group that you asked about. Check out what is said about the
Poco it sounds like just the one.

When I take my great nieces and nephews out ( ages 4 to 9 ) on my Hobie
Pursuit SOT.... you would think I had re-invented the word
adventure...They love it!

As to paddles if you can not find one at a kayak shop or outfitter try a
swim shop or outdoor shop that sells inflatables and water toys I have
seen  kiddy paddles in places like that. For the larger kids I have
shortened one of my cheap, light, old paddles with a hacksaw, filed the
edges smooth and re-drilled the holes for the button thingies. ( please
excuse the technospeak ) It works just fine for just thrashing about in
shallow water...as long as they can move forward they are thrilled.

Have fun!

Rob Dee
Austin, Texas


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From: John Fereira <jaf30_at_cornell.edu>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Kayaks for kids
Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2000 08:00:11 -0500
At 11:06 PM 12/1/00 -0600, Rob Dee wrote:
>On 12/1/00 Dave Williams asked:
>

>
>When I take my great nieces and nephews out ( ages 4 to 9 ) on my Hobie
>Pursuit SOT.... you would think I had re-invented the word
>adventure...They love it!

A couple of years ago we rented a vacation home at the outer banks that was
right on the sound.   I rented a SOT for the surf but took it out into flat
water of
the sound with my, then 2 1/2 year old niece sitting in front of me, and
paddle
out a couple hundred feet  to get a closer look at an osprey nest.   She was
very nervous at first but wanted to go out again as soon as we got back.

She and her family were here for a visit last weekend and when I brought
my paddle out to get ready for a pool session she picked it up, and started
to wave it back and forth and asked "this is how you do it, right?"    She was
obviously paying attention.   She loves the water so I'm hoping the next time
she visits when the water is warm to get her back in a kayak.



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From: Matt Broze <mkayaks_at_oz.net>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Kayaks for kids
Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 20:43:50 -0800
John Fereira wrote:
>>>>Another possibility would be to build your own kids kayak (with the help
of the kid).   Pygmy makes a Goldeneye 10, a 10' long 17" wide boat
that only weighs 14 pounds.   I don't know if it's available in plans form
but any other S&G boat could be scaled down to kid size and would make
a great father/son project.<<<<<<

Sorry Dave, I missed that one. In my rush to go visit my mother before it
got too late, I didn't check my Non-North American, wood, or skin kayak
databases in compiling the previous list. Some other possibilities I missed
are the Kid sized kayak that Chris Cunningham of Sea Kayaker made for his
kids (maybe Sea Kayaker Magazine has plans for it).

Some other wood kayaks, kits or plans are available from:

BETSIE BAY KAYAK:Alan Anderson  P.O. Box 1706, Frankfort, MI  49635
(231)352-7774    www.betsiebaykayak.com   info_at_betsiebaykayak.com ----- have
or had a Miko-Kid's Kayak (13-6 x 17")

GLEN-L MARINE DESIGNS:  9152 Rosecrans, P.O.Box 1804, Bellflower, CA
90706-2138    (562)630-6258  fax:(562)630-6280    www.glen-l.com/
e-mail:info_at_glen-l.com ---- have plans for a 9' Kid's kayak.

RIVERCITY KAYAKS:(?J. Libera)    123 Main St., Fountain City, WI  54629
(608)687-8158   www.rivercitykayaks.com   jlibera_at_Luminet.net ----  has a
Kiddie Kayak 12' (12-8 x 20")


HAND CRAFTED KAYAKS:Randy Monge  P.O.Box 580, Eastsound, WA  98245
(206)376-3677  (all skin on frame)---- has two skin-on-frame Kidyak's one
(12-0 x 22") and another (10-0 x18")

FEATHERCRAFT PRODUCTS LTD:Doug Simpson & Larry Zecchel  1244 Cartwright St.,
Vancouver, BC, V6H 3R8, Canada   (604)681-8437   fax:(604)681-7282
http://www.feathercraft.com   e-mail: info_at_feathercraft.com -----used to
make the folding Koho (11-6 x 22") but I think it has been discontinued.


Another option, I forgot to mention, would be to design and build your own
Kid's kayak using plywood, skin-on-frame or wood-strip construction.
Software to help you design a wood-strip or Aleut style skin kayak can be
found for free in the "Downloads" section of our website.


Matt Broze
http://www.marinerkayaks.com



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From: <FoldingBoats_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Kayaks for kids
Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 13:08:31 EST
In a message dated Mon, 4 Dec 2000  1:03:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Paul Hollerbach" <paulhollerbach_at_netzero.net> writes:

<< Chesapeake Light Craft also has a kid's kayak, see

http://www.clcboats.com/

Ciao, >>

To which model are you referring, Paul?

Ralph Hoehn


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From: <FoldingBoats_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Kayaks for kids
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 07:18:28 EST
In a message dated 12/5/00 8:49:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, cbeckman_at_dmv.com 
writes:

<< Ralph Hoehn
 CLC has the Chesapeake 14, which is a nice boat for children and petite 
adults. My 11 year old (110 lb.) paddles a Chesapeake 16.  I can also take it 
out, although I'm a bit large for it.  Both boats are comfortable and well 
mannered. I put a skeg on the 16 but she hardly ever uses it. 
 Chris Beckman >>

Thanks, Chris!

I thought I might have missed something specifically designed for children. I 
built myself a 16' CLC Yare some years ago, but that's still a bit hefty for 
my 50# 6-year-old ... will have to break down and build him that very short 
folder this winter!!

Ralph C. Hoehn
Ralph_at_PouchBoats.com
www.PouchBoats.com

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From: <Gypsykayak_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Kayaks for kids
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 10:29:41 EST
The Xmas 2000 Wyoming River Raiders catalog  (800-247-6068 or 
riverraiders.com)
has a Loon 86 Kayak Package for $369.  

"The Loon 86 is a kayak designed especially for kids.  It's easy to paddle, 
hard to turn over, and weighs 35 lbs.  8'6" L - 22 W.  Made for paddlers 
under 100 lbs."

Package deal includes: Old Town Loon 86 kayak, fold-down seat, installed foot 
braces, and kid's kayak paddle.    item number 22184

The photo shows a couple of kids in these yaks (looks like the large cockpit 
type) - one looks about 4 yoa an dthe other about 5 or 6!  (Of course, I may 
be wrong about these estimates as my "kids" are 32 and 28.

sandy kramer
miami

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From: <tfj_at_interaccess.com>
subject: [Paddlewise] Chlorine and Neoprene Sprayskirts
Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 19:24:36 -0600
I can imagine that repeated exposure of nylon coated sprayskirts to chlorinated
water will degrade the water repellency no matter how thoroughly you rinse the
skirt.  Anyone have info on whether using a neoprene skirt in pool water will
damage it?




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From: Dave Kruger <dkruger_at_pacifier.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Chlorine and Neoprene Sprayskirts
Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 19:17:10 -0800
"tfj_at_interaccess.com" wrote:
> 
> I can imagine that repeated exposure of nylon coated sprayskirts to chlorinated
> water will degrade the water repellency no matter how thoroughly you rinse the
> skirt.  Anyone have info on whether using a neoprene skirt in pool water will
> damage it?

Yes, eventually, even neoprene will be degraded by pool chlorine.  Other
varieties of rubber (latex, for example) are more quickly degraded, but neo
will go, too.  Ozone and sunshine degrade neoprene as well.

For pool work, it is a good idea to use an old sprayskirt you no longer take on
tours.

-- 
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR

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From: Mark Z <canoeist_at_dotzen.org>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Chlorine and Neoprene Sprayskirts
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 21:47:18 -0700 (MST)
On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, tfj_at_interaccess.com wrote:

> I can imagine that repeated exposure of nylon coated sprayskirts to chlorinated
> water will degrade the water repellency no matter how thoroughly you rinse the
> skirt.  Anyone have info on whether using a neoprene skirt in pool water will
> damage it?

in short -- DON'T DO it!!! most folks i know use an old nylon
"pool" skirt... neoprene gets eaten pretty quickly...

mark
-- 
#------canoeist[at]dotzen[dot]org------------------------------------
#
mark zen                      o,    o__              o_/|   o_.
po box 474                   </     [\/              [\_|   [\_\
ft. lupton, co 80621-0474 (`-/-------/----')      (`----|-------\-')
#~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~
http://www.dotzen.org/paddler  [index to club websites i administer]



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From: Michael Daly <michaeldaly_at_home.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Chlorine and Neoprene Sprayskirts
Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 11:18:13 -0500
From: "Mark Z" <canoeist_at_dotzen.org>


> On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, tfj_at_interaccess.com wrote:
> 
> > I can imagine that repeated exposure of nylon coated sprayskirts to chlorinated
> > water will degrade the water repellency no matter how thoroughly you rinse the
> > skirt.  > 
> in short -- DON'T DO it!!! most folks i know use an old nylon
> "pool" skirt... neoprene gets eaten pretty quickly...

On the other hand, when I asked my scuba instructor years ago how the chlorine
affected his wetsuit, he said (after years of teaching and using the a wetsuit over and 
over in the pool) that it doesn't affect it much other than to bleach the nylon outer
layer.   If, as Dave K. has said, the chlorine does eat the neoprene, it seems to 
take a long time.

I agree with the approach of using a battered old skirt in the pool - if only because 
the fading makes it look awful pretty quickly.  In all the time I've spent in the pool
with wetsuit and/or skirt, I've found the degradation to be minimal.

Mike

PS - since there are several mixtures and strengths of water purifiers used in
swimming pools, YMMV.


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From: Steve Cramer <cramer_at_coe.uga.edu>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Chlorine and Neoprene Sprayskirts
Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 16:10:14 -0500 (EST)
On Sat, 9 Dec 2000, Michael Daly wrote:

> > in short -- DON'T DO it!!! most folks i know use an old nylon
> > "pool" skirt... neoprene gets eaten pretty quickly...
> 
> On the other hand, when I asked my scuba instructor years ago how the chlorine
> affected his wetsuit, he said (after years of teaching and using the a wetsuit over and 
> over in the pool) that it doesn't affect it much other than to bleach the nylon outer
> layer.   If, as Dave K. has said, the chlorine does eat the neoprene, it seems to 
> take a long time.

Judging from the skirts the University WW Club has been using for roll
practice, less than 2 yrs of 25-30 times a year pool practice (2 hours)
results in noticeable weakening of the neoprene, but little fading. I keep
telling them to rinse afterwards, but....

Steve Cramer                     



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From: Michael Daly <michaeldaly_at_home.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Chlorine and Neoprene Sprayskirts
Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 12:40:32 -0500
From: "Steve Cramer" <cramer_at_coe.uga.edu>


> On Sat, 9 Dec 2000, Michael Daly wrote:
> 
> > > in short -- DON'T DO it!!! most folks i know use an old nylon
> > > "pool" skirt... neoprene gets eaten pretty quickly...
> > 
> > On the other hand, when I asked my scuba instructor years ago how the chlorine
> > affected his wetsuit, he said (after years of teaching and using the a wetsuit over and 
> > over in the pool) that it doesn't affect it much other than to bleach the nylon outer
> > layer.   If, as Dave K. has said, the chlorine does eat the neoprene, it seems to 
> > take a long time.
> 
> Judging from the skirts the University WW Club has been using for roll
> practice, less than 2 yrs of 25-30 times a year pool practice (2 hours)
> results in noticeable weakening of the neoprene, but little fading. I keep
> telling them to rinse afterwards, but....

I wonder if the use (rolling, rescue etc) leads to more abuse than regular
paddling.  This also may reflect the difference in the chemicals (type and
concentration) used in the pools.

I have two nominally identical skirts, one of which I use in the pool, the other 
only on fresh water (Both Trailhead logo, made by Brooks).  I do rinse 
the pool one most of the time.  The fresh water skirt is two years newer than 
the pool skirt.  There is only a slight difference in fading (leading to the 
assumption that the sun accounts for most of it) and no difference in the 
integrity of the neoprene.   

I think some controlled experiments are in order before we can make some
definitive statements on the lifespan of neoprene skirts in the pool.  I think
it's safe to say - use an old skirt.

Mike


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From: Erik Sprenne <sprenne_at_netnitco.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Chlorine and Neoprene Sprayskirts
Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 16:01:15 -0600
Coated nylon and neoprene are not immune to the effects of
chlorine (actually hypochlorite) which is a strong oxidizing
agent. Maybe the differences are:

a) Coated nylon skirts use a thin layer of adhered waterproofing,
and might experience loss of waterproofness more quickly owing to
the (lack of) thickness of the waterproof film.

b) Neoprene is thicker, and chlorine-induced degradation on the
surface may not be immediately evident, especially with a nylon
skin.  Also, neoprene is not a single chemical entity, but is
rather a generic designation for a natural rubber made of
polychloroprene, which can be co-polymerized with other chemicals
to provide different physical properties.  If oxidative stability
is a goal of the polymer design, then it probably can be
achieved - perhaps at the expense of other physical properties.
Steve's testimony indicates that neoprene used for spray skirts
degrades on exposure to chlorine.  Maybe the manufacturer of
Mike's skirt uses a different neoprene formulation.

c) Neoprene used in diving suits doesn't need to be as stretchy,
and might be formulated differently - or it may be that the
degradative effects of chlorine aren't as noticeable in
unstretched neoprene.

IIRC, the neoprene molecule exists in a coiled shape, and owes
it's stretchiness to the uncoiling of the molecule under stress
(natural/latex rubber behaves in similar fashion and has the
*best* stretchy characteristics, but has less durability towards
chemicals and the environment).

Don't use your good skirt in the pool!

Erik Sprenne


Michael Daly" <michaeldaly_at_home.com> wrote:
>>> On the other hand, when I asked my scuba instructor years ago
how the chlorine affected his wetsuit, he said (after years of
teaching and using the a wetsuit over and over in the pool) that
it doesn't affect it much other than to bleach the nylon outer
layer. If, as Dave K. has said, the chlorine does eat the
neoprene, it seems to take a long time.<<<

To which Steve Cramer <cramer_at_coe.uga.edu> responded:
>>> Judging from the skirts the University WW Club has been using
for roll practice, less than 2 yrs of 25-30 times a year pool
practice (2 hours) results in noticeable weakening of the
neoprene, but little fading. I keep telling them to rinse
afterwards, but....<<<

And Mike <michaeldaly_at_home.com> commented further:
>>> I wonder if the use (rolling, rescue etc) leads to more abuse
than regular paddling. This also may reflect the difference in
the chemicals (type and concentration) used in the pools.
I have two nominally identical skirts, one of which I use in the
pool, the other only on fresh water (Both Trailhead logo, made by
Brooks). I do rinse the pool one most of the time. The fresh
water skirt is two years newer than the pool skirt. There is only
a slight difference in fading (leading to the assumption that the
sun accounts for most of it) and no difference in the integrity
of the neoprene. <<<








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From: Erik Sprenne <sprenne_at_netnitco.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Chlorine and Neoprene Sprayskirts
Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 23:57:48 -0600
Correction:
earlier I wrote 
> neoprene is not a single chemical entity, but is
> rather a generic designation for a natural rubber made of
> polychloroprene.....

I really meant to say that neoprene is a *synthetic* rubber

Erik



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From: <Gypsykayak_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Kayaks for kids
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 13:19:34 EDT
A while back there was a request for info on this topic.

The June 2001 issue of Sea Kayaker has an article reviewing 7 kids' kayaks.  

There's another article on building a child's Greenland Kayak (with 
outriggers).
There's a really neat photo of a 4 year old in his cutesy yak.

sandy kramer
miami
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