Vince didn't mince his words, and said: <Not that you have the choice of maneuvering the bow into the oncoming waves (unless you're using a cockpit breathing tube, rebreather, or other like device and paddle better than Maligiaq inverted),> I have a breathing tube. It is unreliable, in that it causes more problems than it solves if there is a bit of water in it and you inhale it accidentally. The tube is difficult to use when you are inverted, due to the pressure on your chest. I do play with it once and awhile, in situations where I can ensure the tube is cleared prior to mouthing over the mouthpiece, then maintain my bite on it for big surf n' such. <and that more often than not your boat boat will be washed beam to the waves if they pack enough energy in their break,> Yes, in bigger waves fer sure, as noted. I bet most folks on the list are relating Peter's question to small to middling wave heights. Big swell makes little difference too, to me, unless it is breaking. Steep swell is best handled coming up into the wave, as gravity then helps you (or one of those Saints). <it is still more pleasant in my view, anyway, to see and dig in on what's bearing' down on your hide (holding position through the next wave - upright or reinverted) than to roll up facing down wave and suddenly be picked up surfed, pearled, and looped - - or broached, bounced, and maytagged for a cycle or two.> Ah, but some of us like it that way, eh. It's cheddar. Yes, if it is important enough to be a do-or-die roll, then by all means come up and "dig" into what is bearing down on you if you have a choice. My last post was merely an off-set view to the common notion that one should always roll up into the wind and waves (even to the point where experts write about shifting to the other side to do this). I don't think it really matters in the end, myself. As has beam pointed out, roll up as best you can, preferably with a view to ending up with a solid brace or scull. My mayhem antics in "Duane, don't miss this for a good laugh" type situations are almost always in gale force winds mixed with tidal currents and/or overfalls, not open water or surf carnage. Some of you may know what the feeling is like. You get knocked over, you set up, roll back up but fail at the hip-snap and/or dunk instead of dink your head (oh no, not that thread again). So there you are, half in, half out of the water, "neither up nor down" as the nursery rhyme goes. You valiantly try to get up, yet you are not prepared to go back over to set up again. Finally, air supplies exhaust from the physical effort, as sinuses may fill up with water, and you bail. It is an oceanic game of the PopOmatic Trouble (move forward, go back, loose your player, get frustrated, etc) To me, every roll context is different, and demands different skills and techniques. Different water conditions can crack your back, or make your liver shiver In surf, I typically go for the Screw Roll. Or, perhaps the Storm Roll with a forward lean if I'm solo and worried about alongshore currents sweeping a bailed kayaker out to sea or into an area not appreciated. I will often try to roll up as the next wave hits the hull, to seaward, as the cumulative roll-exhaustion rate lowers itself if you are out for a full day of rolling practice. Use the force, Luke. Live long and prosper -- or at least cut back on shoulder strain syndrome. Open water rolling gives you many more options. I have in the past, more so than recently, headed out into gale conditions with 8 foot seas, to practice rolling over on purpose as a wave hits. Don't hang upside-down in a full extension to China position, but set-up for your roll, and do it with determination. This is not the place to come out of your boat on a failed roll. I will usually come up on my strong side (as the controlling factor), with a Pawlata Roll with extended paddle grip -- just to be sure (though some would vehemently be opposed to a hand position change under water). I don't worry about which way the waves are coming. I can usually muscle my way up on the side of my choice. I don't have time to orient myself if the water is really cold, though you can often feel which way the waves are coming from unless body and mind are numb. Open water rolling with heavy following seas is one area that I take seriously. This is an area where I have rolled suddenly and unexpectedly. It can be so sudden, that orientation can be difficult to determine. If the slid n' ride waves are big enough, it can make a difference what side you roll up on, if you have an offside roll, and the other disclaimers. The only way I suggest one figure out reflexivity rolling instincts that predispose you to success in that type of scenario, is to go out and experiment. Try going over on purpose in heavy following seas, both flipping left then right, and working out the spatial requirements to roll up correctly. This is the one situation I endeavor to try to maintain some kind of orientation possibility with. Rock gardens are the other situation that creates some fear and trepidation in me. Those barnacle covered rocks will shred and kill you dead. Then there is going over in surge channels, where the narrow constriction forces the water to oscillate like a kid in a bathtub can create, which combines to make rolling back up very difficult. There is no up-wave side. You are in the "wave". The entire oscillation going in and then sucking back out demands the fastest, most powerful roll you have. I don't pre-practice for this type of rolling. Apparently, the Tsunami Rangers do. Or release the buckle belt on their SOT's and dive! dive! dive! River paddling is a whole 'nother story to surf and open water sea kayaking. Even my buddies who are good WW paddlers with 1.5 to 2.5 second all conditions roll times have facial lacerations now and again from hitting rocks. And when you do get trapped in a deep hole, loosing the PopOmatic Game can have serious consequences. A fast screw roll , whatever side, is mandatory. <But like I said, if it's an accident, what choice do you have whether you face toward or away from the wave??> Agreed. And different boats are more prone to broaching than others. I often practice going over in different conditions to test my methods for getting back up, as mentioned above. Folks should do the same thing with sculling maneuvers, including one's off-side brace abilities. I can do a lot more with a river kayak. <As for which side (oh, that's what you wanted to know, wasn't it), always roll up up wave (unless you're caught up in your own loose tow line during a rescue and have to rotate the opposite way to unwrap, but that's another story ;-). Learn to have enough patience with your roll that you can "hang out" and enjoy the scenery (inverted) while a wave passes over (just for practice - nice regular wave sets). Feel its energy and get a sense of its movement over you. If you can time your roll to the "punch" of the wave, even a lousy (or maybe formerly non existent) off side roll will bring you right around, rolling up wave.> I wish folks would do more of this type of practice, Vince. <As far as getting a nasty green water slap in the face (from rolling up wave), I have not had it happen to me during the last few years of progressing in the surf zone - probably due to timing the roll to the passing of the wave (thus using its energy to help rotate) and by slowing the roll to match the speed at which the wave passes over. This brings me up on the back of the wave unless, of course, my broached boat has been grabbed and dragged halfway back to the beach in the soup - still broached (where's that cockpit breathing tube when you need it, anyway??). It does happen occasionally, especially with a lay-back roll. But I wouldn't say it is a big problem. Sorry if my last post suggested it. <I'll try, but first, a warning. I'm an intermediate learner with a long way> >> to go before I should be telling others how to do things. I posted this >> little theory in order to draw comment from those better able to give >> advice. Come on in you storm rollers, where are you when I need you? <Wish I could say "Out paddling" like our storm paddling chairman on this list serve, but in reality I've been busy doing weird and un-natural things (besides Holiday time spent with family).> I thought storm paddling was weird and un-natural. Actually, now that my wife is doing some rough water paddling, it's all too weird and wonderful. Anyway, I think you are defacto chairman this year. Our weather has turned out warm and calm. Perfect conditions I'm told by various, envious back-channelers. I'm not sure what the best side is to roll up on, but I do know you had four weather bombs hit the east coast last month. I know what side of the continent I'd like to roll up on! Of course, my heavy Nordkapp is its own ice breaker :-) <Spent last Saturday knuckling my way across a couple hundred yards of sea ice against 25~30 mph. (locally higher??) head winds.> <snip> Um, weird is right, Vince. Then there's your run-on sentence structure, which is almost as good as mine. :-) DL *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. 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