Steve Scherrer: ... Why buy an obsolete boat? Why not benefit from new technology and learn in a modern boat? Rich Kulawiec: ... <chuckle> I don't really strongly disagree *except* that I am very concerned that a lot of beginners are not acquiring strong fundamental skills, and I think boat designs are part of the problem. (They're certainly not the only factor, though.) ... Ralph Hoehn: I see no problem with "beginners ... not getting strong fundamental skills" IN THIS CONTEXT! As long as these beginners, then beginners no more, don't later assume that they can immediately and with impunity paddle anything else beyond the highly specialized boats, in which they learnt at the outset, in the self same highly specialized circumstances ... not that they couldn't learn to do so, of course, but the skill set required would be different. Conversely I have sound sea skills for my purposes and for the boats with which and the circumstances under which I paddle. That does not make me a white water jockey ... and I know my limitations in that respect. Ralph *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
FoldingBoats_at_aol.com wrote: > // Rich Kulawiec: ... <chuckle> I don't really strongly disagree *except* that I am very concerned that a lot of beginners are not acquiring strong fundamental skills, and I think boat designs are part of the problem. // In some ways, you guys scare me - I just want to take my sea kayak to strange and distant shores and be able to land the thing safely. Then the next day or so, get the thing back into the blue water for the next port of call. What I propose to do is to get some training in the (for now) gentle surf, to get my confidence and skill level somewhat better. Is there a way to get those skills safely and applicable to the sea kayaks that I prefer to paddle?? That is: Is there a boat that you all would recommend for training the Beginner/Intermediate paddler?? Wayne *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Wayne wrote: > In some ways, you guys scare me - I just want to take my sea > kayak to strange and distant shores and be able to land the thing > safely. Then the next day or so, get the thing back into the > blue water for the next port of call. > > What I propose to do is to get some training in the (for now) > gentle surf, to get my confidence and skill level somewhat > better. > > Is there a way to get those skills safely and applicable to the > sea kayaks that I prefer to paddle?? > > That is: Is there a boat that you all would recommend for > training the Beginner/Intermediate paddler?? > Wayne, Maybe the conclusion to be drawn from the whitewater discussion is that the type of boat doesn't really matter, as long as it is shorter and more maneuverable than a sea kayak. You won't get everyone to agree on a single model as the perfect training boat. If you've got money to burn, go ahead and buy a new boat. If you don't want to spend a lot, by all means get an older model. The short/long boat or displacement/planing hull debate is similar to the rudder/no rudder debate in that there will never be a consensus reached. I think that one thing that everyone can agree on is that if you get some formal instruction in either whitewater or surf paddling, you will climb the learning curve the quickest irrespective of the type of boat you're paddling. Signing up for a class may also enable you to demo of a number of different boats so that you can find which type of boat suits *you* the best (but be aware that this will change with time). Regards, Erik Sprenne *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Erik, well put! JFF > > Wayne, > > Maybe the conclusion to be drawn from the whitewater discussion >is that the type of boat doesn't really matter, as long as it is >shorter and more maneuverable than a sea kayak. You won't get >everyone to agree on a single model as the perfect training boat. > > If you've got money to burn, go ahead and buy a new boat. If >you don't want to spend a lot, by all means get an older model. >The short/long boat or displacement/planing hull debate is >similar to the rudder/no rudder debate in that there will never >be a consensus reached. > > I think that one thing that everyone can agree on is that if you >get some formal instruction in either whitewater or surf > paddling, you will climb the learning curve the quickest >irrespective of the type of boat you're paddling. Signing up for >a class may also enable you to demo of a number of different >boats so that you can find which type of boat suits *you* the >best (but be aware that this will change with time). > > Regards, >Erik Sprenne *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: Wayne Smith <wsmith_at_cts.com> Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2001 5:33 PM Subject: [Paddlewise] White Water Boats > In some ways, you guys scare me .... What I propose to do is to get some training in the (for now) gentle surf, to get my confidence and skill level somewhat better. .... As I understand you donīt mean to get into the whitewater world, but to master surf control with an easier, more manoeuvrable and forgiving kayak, to then apply what you learn to your usual sea-kayak. So then my suggestion is go for a classic goody, PERCEPTION'S DANCER XL PRO-LINE ( Yes, XL means extra large ) You might still find a new one somewhere in the USA, I can help you in the search as I have a contact there. A used one ( I won't say 2nd hand ... -} ) should cost $100 or $200. The Dancer has been the "daddy" of today's w.w. kayaks. Itīs round section and overall length makes it fast, easy manoeuvring, and excellent surfer. I still believe that only a seakayak is more exciting to play enders. Any boat shorter will be too different from a seakayak. Donīt go shorter than the RPM ! Good Luck ! Fernando Lopez Arbarello Kayak Argentina - Sea Kayaking Mailing List www.topica.com/lists/kayak_argentina kayak_argentina_at_uol.com.ar *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Fernando writes: >>suggestion is go for a classic goody, PERCEPTION'S DANCER XL PRO-LINE ( Yes, XL means extra large ) It was actually called the Dancer XT <Extra Tubby> and IMNSHO is a real piece of Siberian sheep dudu. The original Dancer was a *classic* but Perception really screwed up when the enlarged it <XT> and shrunk it <XS>. The XT is tippy as heck, cockpit is too tall, edges are non-existant. Granted you can find 'em for a hundred bucks or less, IMHO it's money down the drain. I'd still look for something modern. The other problem with any boat over 5 years old is the life span of the poly-plastic. Most old Dancers and such are either broken or due to in the near future. Steve Scherrer aldercreek.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Touche ! Sorry by the mistake. Check my response to Kevin anyway. You're surely right about the plastic, I never thought about it. Cheers .- Fernando Lopez Arbarello Kayak Argentina - Sea Kayaking Mailing List www.topica.com/lists/kayak_argentina kayak_argentina_at_uol.com.ar *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mh! I quit White Water padling in 93. Was a nice and sometimes great time. When I read out all the statements on different types of ww boats, Iīm happy I had quit that area. More then before, it is almost unpossible to get the "ideal" kayak. When I started with WW, there wasnīt much choice on the (european) market. BUT it was enough material for everyone, find an almost ideal kayak. Meanwhile I couldnīt see the forrest, because of all the different types of trees... I quit WW to concentrate on Seakayaking. Several reasons may had caused this decision. The injury risk and my problems with glasses in cold water by hot air. I had a dislocation of my right shoulder in the late 80īs, to much risk in WW. The long ways, get to real White Water, the risk if there is enough water or too much water. Wha for companions do you find? Without me, the WW rivers are full enough, crowded with paddlers and rafts. He, remember a joke on rafts: Why is the rafter knife is called so? If you have to get into a returning water place and its no place because of all the rafts - get out the rafter knife ... and you got enough place to retire....! No! WW is great learning all necessary techniques, canoe polo also, but paddle tours on rivers and seas - thats my world. I could paddle on my own, no problems with water, no massive direct risk, no problems with the group/companions, more "for the eyes". And if you need the kick, go surfing with you seakayak or a playboat on next beach or tidal race. More choice, more relaxation, less risk. WW is still a great kayak-sport. But itīs no more my favourite one. bye Jochen Grikschat *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I agree that basic skill on w.w. seem to be less important then surfing with a lot of the paddlers I've seen. I started w.w. paddling at the end of last season and found I really enjoy it. Although my skills in a sea boat are 4 star I approached learning w.w. like I hadn't paddled before and tried to keep an open mind about learning new ways of solving old problems. In doing so I've really improved my sea paddling and become a good w.w. paddler too. Last week I had a friend with me at the local play spots (scudders falls) to take some photos for an article I was working on for ANorAK. On the drive over I was telling him about the park and play generation and wile there we meet a kids that fit the description. He was back surfing and pulling nice cartwheels but then flipping when entering the eddy. I almost thought I might need to do a rescue after he missed a 3 roll attempt. When we were leaving I tried to explain it's not good to be out with out another paddler even at a park and play site but he said he would be fine. JFF > >Ralph Hoehn: I see no problem with "beginners ... not getting strong >fundamental skills" IN THIS CONTEXT! As long as these beginners, >then beginners no more, don't later assume that they can immediately >and with impunity paddle anything else beyond the highly specialized >boats, in which they learnt at the outset, in the self same highly >specialized circumstances ... not that they couldn't learn to do so, >of course, but the skill set required would be different. > >Conversely I have sound sea skills for my purposes and for the boats >with which and the circumstances under which I paddle. That does not >make me a white water jockey ... and I know my limitations in that >respect. > >Ralph *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.4.0 : Thu Aug 21 2025 - 16:33:20 PDT