Hi Wayne, I'm glad you stated your intentions a little better. It's obvious there are a lot of whitewater paddlers on this list, which I think is good. Both sports benefit substantially from crossover. Your intention to improve your skill and reflexes will be admirably served by learning how to surf in a whitewater or surf-specific craft. There is just so much that can be learned from using a boat that is responsive to both good and bad technique. Sea kayaks are just too long and unwieldy in the surf for real learning, in my opinion. Although it is necessary to practice with them in surf, you will learn more in a shorter boat. Given your size, I would recommend one of two craft. An Ocean Kayaks Yakboard, which is a wide but nimble surf-only sit-on-top, is the best possible craft for learning how to surf in a kayak. Stable enough to have confidence right from the start, but nimble enough on the wave to really learn about edging, cutbacks, turns, and sidesurfing. This is the boat that George Gronseth uses in his surf classes. They are fairly cheap too, and probably can be found for around $400 used. But they are hard to roll, and don't require a roll anyway. This could limit your confidence, since one of the best reasons for getting into the surf is to develop confidence in rolling. Your confidence will be vastly improved after you get it through your head that you can just keep cool when capsized until the wave calms down, and *then* roll up. Any rolling situation on the open ocean is going to be a lot easier than a rolling situation in the surf. As far as whitewater kayaks are concered, if you go this route, absolutely buy a boat with low volume stern and sharp chines. Anything else is a waste of time in the surf, and your learning potential will be severely limited. You should look for a boat that is larger and fits your body well; you probably don't want to sacrifice comfort for performance like I do. There are so many whitewater boats that fit this billing for larger folks, but the most common are probably the Wavesport Z, Inazone 240, and Dagger Redline. You should pay around $500 for these used. An RPM, is probably the best option for a displacement hull. Cheers, Kevin ----------------------------------------------------------------- Kevin Whilden Your Planet Earth kevin_at_yourplanetearth.org http://www.yourplanetearth.org voice: (206) 788-0281 fax: (206) 788-028 ----------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: Kevin Whilden <kevin_at_yourplanetearth.org> To: <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net> Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2001 7:26 PM Subject: [Paddlewise] Re White Water Boats >... buy a boat with low volume stern and sharp chines. Anything else is a waste > of time in the surf, and your learning potential will be severely limited. Sorry Kevin, I disagree on this. Wayne is looking for a kayak he can learn to surf with, not a kayak that surfs by itself. These kayaks you suggest are surfing machines with flat ends, good starting point from where to learn enders, cartwheels, and all the difficult stuff. Heīs not looking for a boat to play 360's, but to run a wave safely, controlling speed, direction, and capsizing. Even an RPM will be too different from any seakayak ! I'll insist on a Dancer or any 2nd generation w.w. kayak. Just trying to help. Don't won't to start a flame here. Best regards .- Fernando Lopez Arbarello Kayak Argentina - Sea Kayaking Mailing List www.topica.com/lists/kayak_argentina kayak_argentina_at_uol.com.ar *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Thanks for your comments Fernando, I wrote: > >... buy a boat with low volume stern and sharp chines. Anything else is a > waste > > of time in the surf, and your learning potential will be severely limited. > Fernando wrote: > Sorry Kevin, I disagree on this. Wayne is looking for a kayak he can learn > to > surf with, not a kayak that surfs by itself. These kayaks you suggest are > surfing machines with flat ends, good starting point from where to learn > enders, cartwheels, and all the difficult stuff. Heīs not looking for a boat > to play 360's, but to run a wave safely, controlling speed, direction, and > capsizing. > > Even an RPM will be too different from any seakayak ! I'll insist on a > Dancer or any 2nd generation w.w. kayak. > > Just trying to help. Don't won't to start a flame here. > Well, I'm not flaming, but I will elaborate on my opinion expressed above. The basis of my assertion to go for a sharp, low volume stern in a whitewater kayak is thus: the skills used in whitewater boats are 100% identical to those used in sea kayaks. I'm talking about edging, forward strokes, sweep strokes, bracing, ruddering (with the paddle), and rolling. Did I leave anything out? But the advantage of a whitewater boat over a sea kayak is that the responsiveness of the boat to these strokes is much higher, thus giving the paddler better feedback on whether the skill was correctly executed. Even the venerable Dancer is much better than a sea kayak in terms of responsiveness in the surf. However, the sharp chined whitewater kayak is significantly more responsive even when compared to a Dancer. Thus the paddler will learn more about the finer points of edging, etc... The point is to learn those skills as fast as possible, so that they can then be translated to a sea kayak. The more responsive craft will speed the learning process. And having surfed dancers, pirouettes (the first sharp railed plastic boat), and everything else on up to the latest rodeo boats and hot-dog surf-only kayaks, I would say that buying a dancer would be a disservice towards the process of learning to surf. Having a low volume, sharp railed stern makes surfing ocean waves easier, because that reduces the tendency to broach, and allows for greater control on the wave through edging. In a dancer, all you can do is run straight down the face and then broach, in an RPM or better, you can carve across the face of the wave, thus learning more about edging, and waves. In fact, the RPM is probably the easiest boat to learn how to surf ever made. Happy paddling down south! Kevin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Iīll try to express myself more clear ... > Kevin wrote: > > >... buy a boat with low volume stern and sharp chines. Anything else is a waste > > > of time in the surf, and your learning potential will be severely limited. > > > Fernando wrote: > > Sorry Kevin, I disagree on this. Wayne is looking for a kayak he can learn > > to surf with, not a kayak that surfs by itself.... > > .... Even an RPM will be too different from any seakayak ! I'll insist on a > > Dancer or any 2nd generation w.w. kayak. So Kevin explains ... > Well, I'm not flaming, but I will elaborate on my opinion expressed above. > > The basis of my assertion to go for a sharp, low volume stern in a > whitewater kayak is this: the skills used in whitewater boats are 100% > identical to those used in sea kayaks. I totally agree. I even suggest to any sekayaker to take some whitewater instruction, as he/she will improove his/her skills to further limits, developoing faster and more precise reflex. > > But the advantage of a whitewater boat over a sea kayak is that the > responsiveness of the boat to these strokes is much higher, thus giving the > paddler better feedback on whether the skill was correctly executed.... You're also right. > Even the venerable Dancer is much better than a sea kayak in terms of > responsiveness in the surf. However, the sharp chined whitewater kayak is > significantly more responsive even when compared to a Dancer. Thus the > paddler will learn more about the finer points of edging, etc... The point > is to learn those skills as fast as possible, so that they can then be > translated to a sea kayak. The more responsive craft will speed the learning > process.... > But in a former message Wayne said: > In some ways, you guys scare me .... What I propose to do is to get some > training in the (for now) gentle surf, to get my confidence and skill level >somewhat better. .... Even when I do recomend him take w.w. instruction, I donīt feel he is willing to. He just want to improove his surfing skills under gentle conditions ... As you (Kevin) properly said ... > In a dancer, all you can do is run straight down the face and then broach .... Exactly what Wayne seems to be looking for .... a boat not too different from a seakayak, just more controlable. Besides he wonīt be able to do any 360's or cartwheels with his seakayak ! > in an RPM or better, > you can carve across the face of the wave, thus learning more about edging, > and waves. In fact, the RPM is probably the easiest boat to learn how to > surf ever made. I also agree and this is what heīll get with proper boat and instruction. But remember RPM and all modern w.w. boats with flat and low volume sterns, were designed (among other things, including good surfing and spinning) to easy reach vertical, and this is something very hard to achieve with a seakayak, at least under gentle conditions ;-}. I know the Dancer is an old daddy and everything will be easier to learn in a modern boat. But I still find it more similar to a seakayak. Just my simple opinion. Wayne, donīt be lazy, donīt be afraid, I donīt know how old are you but age is not important. Go for some w.w. instruction ! Otherwise youīll miss a grate fun !!! ;-> Fernando Lopez Arbarello Kayak Argentina - Sea Kayaking Mailing List www.topica.com/lists/kayak_argentina kayak_argentina_at_uol.com.ar ( From a flooded Buenos Aires in a rainy day .... ) P.S.: By the way ? Is it true that after the quake the US Coast Guard is forcing seakayakers to wear seatbelts ??? Or was it Canada ??? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Fernando, (message snipped) I'm kind of busy right now to get into this issue of which boat is most desirable, but I do know that Kevin has a good point about the learning curve shortening with the new designs. I've seen it in front of my own eyes. Also, the new Gliss I was just given is only 7' 11". I would have preferred the Jive at over 9', if I had been buying my own.. The reason. It is much faster. That also means less control in a learning situation -- to some degree. The shorter boats, non-displacement, force you to learn in a round-about way. They also increase your endurance and need for being a better, stronger paddler because you have to work harder to catch the waves, etc. You said in your post: "Wayne, donīt be lazy, donīt be afraid, I donīt know how old are you but age is not important. Go for some w.w. instruction ! Otherwise youīll miss a grate fun !!! " Ah, now you have a point! Some of us might me new-school kayakers in old-schoo bodies! :-) Gotta run... One paddler's opinion. Doug *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Fernando, et al: Here is some short text regarding old-design kayaks vs new, for surfing, from a site conveying info about Necky Kayaks: <http://www.neckykayaks.com/neckykayaks_whitewater.html> DL *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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