PaddleWise by thread

From: Matt Broze <mkayaks_at_oz.net>
subject: [Paddlewise] Safety Warning
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 17:30:36 -0800
I recently learned of two separate incidents where paddlers were trapped in
their kayak upon capsizing because they were wearing neoprene gloves. I
talked to the near drowning victim in one of these incidents. She had been
hospitalized and is alive today only because her paddling partners reached
her and got her out of the kayak. She said the problem was that with the
gloves on she could not feel what she was touching and could not find the
grab loop to remove the spraydeck. This same lack of feeling also made it
impossible for her to find and release the Velcro straps on the back of the
gloves in order to take them off to free her fingers.
Let me suggest that any new gear you get may have more effect on you than
you can anticipate. Honestly, how many of us would realize that the addition
of gloves to keep our hands warm could make it impossible for us top remove
the sprayskirt, much less, the gloves themselves.
Everyone should practice alternative ways to remove their spraydeck in case
they inadvertently tuck in their release loop or have it fail and break
loose.
Some suggestions to try:
Many spraydecks have the shock cord protruding from the rear where the
tension can be adjusted. This can serve as an alternative grab loop. Also,
try lifting your PFD by shoving your hand down inside the spraydeck through
the waist tube opening and then push out to the side, palm up, just above
the coaming rim with your fingertips straight to break the seal (and then
lift up from the elbow and sweep your hand forward to remove the skirt). You
push out to the side first because it is easier to get the shock cord to
clear the cockpit where there is less of a curve.
Consider using Pogies to keep your hands warm or cutting a few fingertips
off your thick neoprene gloves.
If you were to dislocate your shoulder (or stick one arm into the sharks
mouth) you may need to be able to release the spray skirt with one hand.
Practice this, try it with the grab looped tucked away too.
Other alternative spraydeck removable suggestions you might have would be
appreciated.
Matt Broze
http://www.marinerkayaks.com


***************************************************************************
PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed
here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire
responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author.
Submissions:     PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net
Subscriptions:   PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net
Website:         http://www.paddlewise.net/
***************************************************************************
From: Kevin Stevens <kevin_stevens_at_hotmail.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Safety Warning
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 17:46:07 -0800
Are there really sprayskirts that fit so tightly that just bracing your 
hands on the coaming and shoving with the appropriate amount of adrenaline 
doesn't work?? (serious question)

KeS

>Everyone should practice alternative ways to remove their spraydeck
>in case they inadvertently tuck in their release loop or have it fail and 
>break loose.

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

***************************************************************************
PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed
here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire
responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author.
Submissions:     PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net
Subscriptions:   PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net
Website:         http://www.paddlewise.net/
***************************************************************************
From: Matt Broze <mkayaks_at_oz.net>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Safety Warning
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 19:02:09 -0800
Kevin Stevens wrote:
> Are there really sprayskirts that fit so tightly that just bracing your
> hands on the coaming and shoving with the appropriate amount of
> adrenaline
> doesn't work?? (serious question)

Yes, and sometimes you need them tight so they aren't imploded by the
breakers.

Matt Broze
http://www.marinerkayaks.com



>

***************************************************************************
PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed
here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire
responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author.
Submissions:     PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net
Subscriptions:   PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net
Website:         http://www.paddlewise.net/
***************************************************************************
From: <JSpinner_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Safety Warning
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 21:01:23 EST
In a message dated 3/6/01 8:32:44 PM, mkayaks_at_oz.net writes:

<< I recently learned of two separate incidents where paddlers were trapped in

their kayak upon capsizing because they were wearing neoprene gloves.. . .big 
snip. . .you may need to be able to release the spray skirt with one hand.

Practice this, try it with the grab looped tucked away too.

Other alternative spraydeck removable suggestions you might have would be

appreciated. >>
    
We Chesapeake Paddlers have been accused of overdoing the safety "thing" but 
what you will see is a lot of us have whiffle golf balls, dog's toys, pieces 
of pvc, all kinds of things on the grab loops of our skirts. I have the 
bright orange balls on mine. 
    This will seal our reputation, but before I paddle any boat I look for 3 
ways out of the skirt. I do that when I set the pegs, if not before. Lean 
over to one side and grab the bunched fabric, use the tail Matt talked about 
and see if your knees will push it off. That orange ball feels odd when it is 
missing. I proved that last week when I was in a hurry because I was holding 
people up and the loop went inside. I fussed and fussed because something 
didn't "feel" right. I finally figured it out, fixed it, and off we went.
    Last year part of the $112 I spent on warm hand was a pair of gloves that 
keep my hands toasty, even when wet. But about 1/3 of the way through the 
first trip with them I had to take them off because I was increasingly aware 
that I would be unable to pull up a bungie cord, operate a simple thing like 
pulling down the zipper of my pfd if I was trapped by something stuck to it 
and so on. 
    I'm VERY unsure about just pogies in cold water. If I go in with no 
protection or just my fingerless gloves, I really doubt I'd be in  any better 
shape for dexterity than I was with the toasty gloves. What I have decided to 
do is *KICKING & SCREAMING* go to a Euro paddle, put short pogies on the 
shaft, and wear the Seal Skin gloves that will at least give me a few seconds 
before my hands are about useless.
    If your hands are gone you can't hold a paddle to do that reenter and 
roll, nor anything else that requires holding onto things. VERY scary!

Joan Spinner
who wants sssooooo badly for the
water to get warm again

***************************************************************************
PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed
here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire
responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author.
Submissions:     PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net
Subscriptions:   PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net
Website:         http://www.paddlewise.net/
***************************************************************************
From: Dave Kruger <dkruger_at_pacifier.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Safety Warning
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 22:10:32 -0800
JSpinner_at_aol.com wrote:

>     I'm VERY unsure about just pogies in cold water. If I go in with no
> protection or just my fingerless gloves, I really doubt I'd be in  any better
> shape for dexterity than I was with the toasty gloves. What I have decided to
> do is *KICKING & SCREAMING* go to a Euro paddle, put short pogies on the
> shaft, and wear the Seal Skin gloves that will at least give me a few seconds
> before my hands are about useless.
>     If your hands are gone you can't hold a paddle to do that reenter and
> roll, nor anything else that requires holding onto things. VERY scary!

The short pogies/Seal Skin glove solution sounds like the ticket for you,
Joan.  I have used pogies (but with no gloves) for years, in cold water, and
never had a problem with cold-induced loss of finger dexterity, in multiple wet
exits.  Caveat:  I am one of those "warm hands" people who rarely need gloves
when the weather is cold.

Unless you have a medical condition (or somesuch) which makes your hands
especially sensitive to cold, I suspect that if your hands quickly become
useless on immersion, the problem is likely to be insufficient immersion
clothing on your torso/head.  This is a variant of the old saw:  "If your feet
are cold, put on a warm hat."

When I paddle on cold water, I wear enough immersion clothing so that I am
really warm while paddling.  Consequently it takes a long time (at least an
hour? has not happened yet) for my hands to lose function/feeling when I go in.

-- 
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR
***************************************************************************
PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed
here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire
responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author.
Submissions:     PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net
Subscriptions:   PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net
Website:         http://www.paddlewise.net/
***************************************************************************
From: Michael Daly <michaeldaly_at_home.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Safety Warning
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 20:22:28 -0500
From: <JSpinner_at_aol.com>


>     This will seal our reputation, but before I paddle any boat I look for 3 
> ways out of the skirt. I do that when I set the pegs, if not before. Lean 
> over to one side and grab the bunched fabric, 

Similar to this is the "smash and grab" approach.  This works for neoprene
skirts.  Slam your open hand down on the skirt in front of you.  This will 
generate a fold that you grab.  Then just pull the skirt up until it releases.
It won't work if you press down slowly - you have to slam it.

Leaning back may also create a fold behind you as well.

Mike

***************************************************************************
PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed
here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire
responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author.
Submissions:     PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net
Subscriptions:   PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net
Website:         http://www.paddlewise.net/
***************************************************************************
From: Brian Nystrom <brian.nystrom_at_att.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Safety Warning - a simple solution
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 20:39:27 -0500
Matt Broze wrote:

> I recently learned of two separate incidents where paddlers were trapped in
> their kayak upon capsizing because they were wearing neoprene gloves. I
> talked to the near drowning victim in one of these incidents. She had been
> hospitalized and is alive today only because her paddling partners reached
> her and got her out of the kayak. She said the problem was that with the
> gloves on she could not feel what she was touching and could not find the
> grab loop to remove the spraydeck. This same lack of feeling also made it
> impossible for her to find and release the Velcro straps on the back of the
> gloves in order to take them off to free her fingers.

Many, if not most of the people I paddle with attach a ball or float to the grab
loop of their spray skirt. It makes it easy to find regardless of what you have
on your hands. Personally, I use a paddle biner in a tightly stitched loop, so
it cannot shift around. There's no way I can miss it.

--
Regards

Brian



***************************************************************************
PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed
here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire
responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author.
Submissions:     PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net
Subscriptions:   PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net
Website:         http://www.paddlewise.net/
***************************************************************************
From: <HTERVORT_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Safety Warning - a simple solution
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 18:43:10 EST
In a message dated 3/6/01 6:30:25 PM Pacific Standard Time, 
brian.nystrom_at_att.net writes:


> . Personally, I use a paddle biner in a tightly stitched loop, so
> it cannot shift around. There's no way I can miss it.
> 

Biners work great because they are heavy enough to hang the strap straight 
down away from the coaming when you are inverted, making it easier to find.  
Also, it gives you an extra biner should you need one for towing or rescues.

However, be sure to use a locking biner so that it doesn't inadvertently hook 
on something before you need to exit or when you're swimming, thus fulfilling 
its paddling moniker -- "death hook".

Harold


***************************************************************************
PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed
here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire
responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author.
Submissions:     PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net
Subscriptions:   PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net
Website:         http://www.paddlewise.net/
***************************************************************************
From: <HTERVORT_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Safety Warning - a simple solution
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 10:45:21 EST
In a message dated 3/8/01 1:12:51 AM Pacific Standard Time, 
teitelba_at_post.tau.ac.il writes:


> Harold:
> 
> Who makes a locking carabiner that is stainless steel, i.e., good in salt 
> water.  I have had many carabiners that get sticky after a while, even if 
> you rinse them.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Josh
> 
> 

I don't know.  Anyone else out there have a source?

This is why I replaced the biners on my vest-mounted tow system with plastic 
side-release buckles and removed the spare biner from my PFD or grab loop.

There have been several references to Witchert (sp?) clips on this list in 
the past.  They work with one hand, are great, very costly and available 
through West Marine.  I think these are stainless.

A good quality climbing biner in colored anodized aluminum will work for a 
long time if protected with Boeshield T-9 lube and religiously rinsed and 
worked after each use in salt water. 

Harold
 



***************************************************************************
PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed
here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire
responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author.
Submissions:     PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net
Subscriptions:   PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net
Website:         http://www.paddlewise.net/
***************************************************************************
From: Alder Creek Kayak & Canoe <aldercreek_at_qwest.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Safety Warning
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 18:06:15 -0800
Another quick way to release the sprayskirt is from the side.  If you just
grab the side of the skirt just above your hip or 1/2 back, and give a big
tug, it'll pop off.  It's a sure fire release if you happen to bury the
loop.

 Another exit that *usually* works is put a knee up thru the cockpit opening
and push out.  I've seen the combing part from the boat using this
technique.

I use a skirt with an implosion bar <SnapDragon> that is an easy release
with the knee trick.

Steve
Alder Creek Kayak and Canoe    N 45º 39' 47"
250 NE Tomahawk Isle Dr.       W 122º 36' 16"
Portland, OR  97217          Web: www.aldercreek.com
Phone: 503.285.0464        Email: aldercreek_at_qwest.net


----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Broze" <mkayaks_at_oz.net>
To: "Paddlewise" <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net>
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2001 5:30 PM
Subject: [Paddlewise] Safety Warning


> I recently learned of two separate incidents where paddlers were trapped
in
> their kayak upon capsizing because they were wearing neoprene gloves. I
> talked to the near drowning victim in one of these incidents. She had been
> hospitalized and is alive today only because her paddling partners reached
> her and got her out of the kayak. She said the problem was that with the
> gloves on she could not feel what she was touching and could not find the
> grab loop to remove the spraydeck. This same lack of feeling also made it
> impossible for her to find and release the Velcro straps on the back of
the
> gloves in order to take them off to free her fingers.
> Let me suggest that any new gear you get may have more effect on you than
> you can anticipate. Honestly, how many of us would realize that the
addition
> of gloves to keep our hands warm could make it impossible for us top
remove
> the sprayskirt, much less, the gloves themselves.
> Everyone should practice alternative ways to remove their spraydeck in
case
> they inadvertently tuck in their release loop or have it fail and break
> loose.
> Some suggestions to try:
> Many spraydecks have the shock cord protruding from the rear where the
> tension can be adjusted. This can serve as an alternative grab loop. Also,
> try lifting your PFD by shoving your hand down inside the spraydeck
through
> the waist tube opening and then push out to the side, palm up, just above
> the coaming rim with your fingertips straight to break the seal (and then
> lift up from the elbow and sweep your hand forward to remove the skirt).
You
> push out to the side first because it is easier to get the shock cord to
> clear the cockpit where there is less of a curve.
> Consider using Pogies to keep your hands warm or cutting a few fingertips
> off your thick neoprene gloves.
> If you were to dislocate your shoulder (or stick one arm into the sharks
> mouth) you may need to be able to release the spray skirt with one hand.
> Practice this, try it with the grab looped tucked away too.
> Other alternative spraydeck removable suggestions you might have would be
> appreciated.
> Matt Broze
> http://www.marinerkayaks.com
>
>
>
***************************************************************************
> PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed
> here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire
> responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author.
> Submissions:     PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net
> Subscriptions:   PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net
> Website:         http://www.paddlewise.net/
>
***************************************************************************
>


***************************************************************************
PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed
here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire
responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author.
Submissions:     PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net
Subscriptions:   PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net
Website:         http://www.paddlewise.net/
***************************************************************************
From: Matt Broze <mkayaks_at_oz.net>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Safety Warning
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 18:36:38 -0800
Steve wrote:
> Another quick way to release the sprayskirt is from the side.  If you just
> grab the side of the skirt just above your hip or 1/2 back, and give a big
> tug, it'll pop off.  It's a sure fire release if you happen to bury the
> loop. <SNIP>

I haven't found this to work very well for me. It's very hard for me to get
a secure grip on the wet spraydeck outside of the coaming and my big fingers
can't seem to get under the shock cord anywhere either. I certainly wouldn't
find this reliable. I've talked to one guy who was trapped in his cockpit at
the symposium a few years ago and he tried this as a second resort and it
failed (before inventing the reach inside the skirt through the waist hole
technique on the spot to rescue himself). Necessity may be the mother of
invention, but I have to admire his calmness in the face of impending doom
to come up with this technique at the spur of the moment without ever having
heard of it before. Adding the wiffle ball was the victim's (in the original
story I told) solution to the problem. I worry that the wiffle ball might
break so prefer a T-stop sewn into the grabloop that will keep my hand from
slipping off the end of the loop  as I pull (push) it forward before lifting
it up to release it. The T works even if I can't get the loop open to get my
fingers inside it.

Steve also wrote:
>  Another exit that *usually* works is put a knee up thru the
> cockpit opening
> and push out.  I've seen the combing part from the boat using this
> technique.

I wouldn't want to have my life depend on poor construction of the kayak
(that lets the cockpit rim break out so easily). The technique certainly is
worth practicing though. Can anyone suggest a field repair to replace a
break away cockpit so I can get back out through the surf to continue my
solo trip in the wilderness.

Matt Broze
http://www.marinerkayaks.com




***************************************************************************
PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed
here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire
responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author.
Submissions:     PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net
Subscriptions:   PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net
Website:         http://www.paddlewise.net/
***************************************************************************
From: <KiAyker_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Safety Warning
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 22:03:05 EST
> Are there really sprayskirts that fit so tightly that just bracing your 
> hands on the coaming and shoving with the appropriate amount of adrenaline 
> doesn't work?? (serious question)
> 

  OK, a quick story. I was teaching a class in kayak surf technique during 
which I mentioned that neoprene sprayskirts are really better suited for surf 
play then are nylon. So when the sand talk ended we prepared to launch into 
the surf. One couple in the class came prepared with two whitewater boats as 
well as two sea kayaks, not sure of which they would want to practice in. 
Well, they chose to use the sea kayaks. As they prepared to launch I noticed 
the girl was struggling a bit to get her neoprene sprayskirt on. I didn't 
think too much about it as it was their own equipment of which they had used 
before, and I assumed, they were familiar with. It turns out that this was a 
mistake on my part.
   After we launched I was working with the class moving from one student to 
another in order to try and give each some personal attention. At some point 
I hear the girls partner, you know, the one's with their own equipment, 
shouting at me with some urgency. I look and see that his girl friend (wife?) 
had capsized and obviously was having trouble exiting the boat! The boyfriend 
or husband or whatever was farther away then I was so I paddled like mad to 
reach her, then I reached under water and ripped her sprayskirt free which 
allowed her to exit.
   It turns out that with my endorsement of neoprene sprayskirts in the surf 
the couple had decided to use the rubber skirts from their whitewater boats, 
which had appreciably smaller cockpits, on their sea kayaks for this class. 
Something neither one of them had ever tried before. I think all three of us 
learned a thing or two in that class.

Scott
So.Cal.


***************************************************************************
PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed
here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire
responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author.
Submissions:     PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net
Subscriptions:   PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net
Website:         http://www.paddlewise.net/
***************************************************************************
From: Matt Broze <mkayaks_at_oz.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Safety Warning
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 01:05:35 -0800
Scott wrote:
<SNIP>
>>>>>>I look and see that his girl friend (wife?)
had capsized and obviously was having trouble exiting the boat! The
boyfriend
or husband or whatever was farther away then I was so I paddled like mad to
reach her, then I reached under water and ripped her sprayskirt free which
allowed her to exit.
   It turns out that with my endorsement of neoprene sprayskirts in the surf
the couple had decided to use the rubber skirts from their whitewater boats,
which had appreciably smaller cockpits, on their sea kayaks for this class.
Something neither one of them had ever tried before. I think all three of us
learned a thing or two in that class.<<<<<<<

Thanks for bringing that up Scott. It is not just wrong sized spraydecks
that are a problem here. Spraydecks made for plastic kayak coaming rims are
often way too hard to remove from a fiberglass coaming rim. Fiberglass
kayaks sprayskirts often won't stay on a plastic kayaks slippery rounded
coaming. It is hard to see how to remedy this problem since the spraydeck
designers are trying to solve the individual problems each kind of kayak has
but the solutions, biasing the remove ability in one direction or the other,
can make the spraydeck a hazard when used on the wrong kayak. Maybe
education about this potential hazard and a warning to everyone to try
taking off any spraydeck you put on (with your eyes closed and your hands
wet) might be in order. I've heard of several spraydeck removal incidents
over the years besides my own. Perhaps with these new incidents its time to
do a safety article for Sea Kayaker on this subject. I appreciate all the
tips. The "slide the spraydeck across the coaming to make a wrinkle to grab"
that Jed gave was a new one I hadn't heard of before. Thanks Jed I'll have
to give it a try.
Matt Broze
http://www.marinerkayaks.com


***************************************************************************
PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed
here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire
responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author.
Submissions:     PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net
Subscriptions:   PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net
Website:         http://www.paddlewise.net/
***************************************************************************
From: <HTERVORT_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Safety Warning
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 18:43:16 EST
In a message dated 3/6/01 5:27:59 PM Pacific Standard Time, mkayaks_at_oz.net 
writes:


> Other alternative spraydeck removable suggestions you might have would be
> appreciated.
> 

The age-old technique of installing a permanent strap running from inside 
your cockpit to a largish ball tucked under a bunji seems a good idea.  Works 
even if you ripped the grab loop off your skirt on any skirt/coaming combo.  
If the ball is large enough, you should be able to locate it with gloves on.

This method was reinvented in a recent issue of Seakayaker magazine.

Harold

***************************************************************************
PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed
here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire
responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author.
Submissions:     PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net
Subscriptions:   PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net
Website:         http://www.paddlewise.net/
***************************************************************************
From: Matt Broze <mkayaks_at_oz.net>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Safety Warning
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 19:52:24 -0800
Somebody was marketing it a few years ago. Good idea but anything that
somebody has to install on there kayak will have a limited market. For the
same reason I'd like to see some easier solution to implement. Best if it is
incorporated into the cockpit or spraydeck and works automatically and adds
no other hazards. I can dream can't I?

Matt Broze
http://www.marinerkayaks.com

  -----Original Message-----
  From: HTERVORT_at_aol.com [mailto:HTERVORT_at_aol.com]
  Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2001 3:43 PM
  To: mkayaks_at_oz.net; paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net
  Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Safety Warning


  In a message dated 3/6/01 5:27:59 PM Pacific Standard Time, mkayaks_at_oz.net
  writes:



    Other alternative spraydeck removable suggestions you might have would
be
    appreciated.



  The age-old technique of installing a permanent strap running from inside
  your cockpit to a largish ball tucked under a bunji seems a good idea.
Works
  even if you ripped the grab loop off your skirt on any skirt/coaming
combo.
  If the ball is large enough, you should be able to locate it with gloves
on.

  This method was reinvented in a recent issue of Seakayaker magazine.

  Harold

***************************************************************************
PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed
here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire
responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author.
Submissions:     PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net
Subscriptions:   PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net
Website:         http://www.paddlewise.net/
***************************************************************************
From: Robert Woodard <woodardr_at_tidalwave.net>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Safety Warning
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 20:28:27 -0500
> From: "Matt Broze" <mkayaks_at_oz.net>
> Subject: [Paddlewise] Safety Warning
>
> I recently learned of two separate incidents where paddlers were
> trapped in
> their kayak upon capsizing because they were wearing neoprene gloves.

Thanks Matt for this insight. Teaching safe wet exits is one of my
obsessions within our club. While it seems a no brainer 99.999% of the time,
all it takes is one entrapment to take your life if you panic, or haven't
thought through the possibility.

During wet exit practice, I encourage folks to 'pretend' that their grab
loop is folded under. Think through how they would handle that situation,
and then try it. Leaving the grab loop exposed, but pretending it is folded
under, allows them a way out in the event their alternate method doesn't
work.

My other wet exit peeve is the wide spread trend to wear sandals or other
type of shoes that can catch easily on foot pegs. Once, it wasn't 15 minutes
after my "don't wear Birkenstocks' speech that a women got hers hung up on a
foot peg. Although she didn't capsize, she was visibly shaken for a bit, and
it made the point for the rest of the group.

Your observations on gloves is something else I will add to my class. Thanks
Matt.

Woody

***************************************************************************
PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed
here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire
responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author.
Submissions:     PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net
Subscriptions:   PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net
Website:         http://www.paddlewise.net/
***************************************************************************
From: John Fereira <jaf30_at_cornell.edu>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Safety Warning
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 10:40:14 -0500
At 08:28 PM 3/7/01 -0500, Robert Woodard wrote:
> > From: "Matt Broze" <mkayaks_at_oz.net>
> > Subject: [Paddlewise] Safety Warning
> >
> > I recently learned of two separate incidents where paddlers were
> > trapped in
> > their kayak upon capsizing because they were wearing neoprene gloves.
>
>Thanks Matt for this insight. Teaching safe wet exits is one of my
>obsessions within our club. While it seems a no brainer 99.999% of the time,
>all it takes is one entrapment to take your life if you panic, or haven't
>thought through the possibility.
>
>During wet exit practice, I encourage folks to 'pretend' that their grab
>loop is folded under. Think through how they would handle that situation,
>and then try it. Leaving the grab loop exposed, but pretending it is folded
>under, allows them a way out in the event their alternate method doesn't
>work.


Thinking about anything besides "I've got to get out of this boat and
breathe" probably helps.  As a member of our local college outdoor club
I am often called upon to witness the mandatory wet exit at pool
sessions before new members are allowed to paddle the clubs kayaks
(actually, they're not given a paddle until a wet exit is demonstrated).
If the new members are first time kayakers I'll explain the sequence of 
events in great detail, then demonstrate a wet exit.  When I demonstrate 
mine I make
sure that I am very deliberate with each step and really take my time
getting out.  Then I'll ask each of the new members to describe the
sequence verbally.  I'll make sure that they repeat each step back
to me before they demonstrate their wet exit.

Inevitably, what happens is someone will tip upside down and forget everything
I said, and I'll witness a mad scramble to get out of the boat and
breathe.  When that happens, I'll make them do it again.  Only after
they've done a wet exit in a controlled deliberate manner are they
given a paddle.  For those that seemed to panic at first I'll often
ask them to do another one near the end of the pool session.

Last weekend I lead a pool session for the club and had everyone
do a wet exit at the beginning.  One woman said, "I hate this part"
and I said, "that's why I'm asking everyone to do one".  I told her
that capsizing in a kayak is inevitable so you might as well feel
comfortable doing it. Practicing a wet exit after an intentional
capsize will provide the experience to keep you from going into a
panic when (not if) you capsize unintentionally.  Once you've unintentionally
capsized and wet exited a few times you won't "hate this part" but
just accept it as part of the sport.

Oh, the steps that I go over go like this:

1. put your forehead to your knees. (I explain why this is
very important if you're paddling potentially shallow water)

2. reach around and slap the hull three times (this has the
effect of thinking of doing something else before pulling the
spray skirt, and also serves a real world purpose of alerting
other paddlers in your group that you've capsized)

3. move your hands toward your hips to the cockpit rim and
then slide them toward the grab loop.

4. find the loop and pull toward the bow first, then away
from the hull.

5. slide the fingers between the skirt and cockpit rim
all the way to the back until the skirt is completely
free.

6. put hands just behind the hips and somersault forward as
if you're taking off a pair of pants.


I realize that one does not need to go through each step to
successfully wet exit but going through a series of steps seems
to help people be more deliberate, and thus less likely to
panic, when they tip over.

One final step that is often not mentioned is to stay in contact
with the boat (and paddle if you can) after exiting the kayak.
If wind driven waves were responsible for an unintended capsize
that same wind can quickly blow a kayak across the water faster
than a human can swim.

***************************************************************************
PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed
here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire
responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author.
Submissions:     PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net
Subscriptions:   PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net
Website:         http://www.paddlewise.net/
***************************************************************************
From: Natalie Wiest <wiestn_at_tamug.tamu.edu>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Safety Warning
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 10:28:43 -0600
In the interest of looking at this from all angles, let me add what I'll
call a "humane insight" to this discussion.  I'm one of those "instant
panic" folks, and remember well how hard it was for me to learn to roll.
Took me 2 years, 30 years ago, and I still feel it whenever I turn over.
I'm near 100% in the swimming pool, closer to 50% "in the wild" - panic, and
not technique my biggest problem.

Rather than forcing a panicked person to do this over and over again, how
about giving them an alternative of lower-panic move of starting with the
boat upside down, without them in it, and have them learn the re-entry and
roll maneuver from this start point.  I.e., have them do a reverse
somersault, in the water, to get their feet and legs into the boat knowing
if they got in that way, they can easily get out too.  This is perhaps
oversimplifying, but it's a technique I've seen Peter Kennedy use in
teaching kids and adults how to roll.  I.e., rather than feed the panic
reflex that many of us have, teach to a solution rather than set up for
failure (panic).

yes, I realize your interest here is in simply seeing that people have a
safe and workable wet exit, not necessarily moving on to the roll.  Just
adding a proposed technique here to help with the panic folks...

Natalie Wiest
Galveston TX

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net
[mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net]On Behalf Of John Fereira
Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2001 9:40 AM
To: Robert Woodard; PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net
Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Safety Warning


At 08:28 PM 3/7/01 -0500, Robert Woodard wrote:
> > From: "Matt Broze" <mkayaks_at_oz.net>
> > Subject: [Paddlewise] Safety Warning
> >
> > I recently learned of two separate incidents where paddlers were
> > trapped in
> > their kayak upon capsizing because they were wearing neoprene gloves.
>
>Thanks Matt for this insight. Teaching safe wet exits is one of my
>obsessions within our club. While it seems a no brainer 99.999% of the
time,
>all it takes is one entrapment to take your life if you panic, or haven't
>thought through the possibility.
>

Thinking about anything besides "I've got to get out of this boat and
breathe" probably helps.  As a member of our local college outdoor club
I am often called upon to witness the mandatory wet exit at pool
sessions before new members are allowed to paddle the clubs kayaks
(actually, they're not given a paddle until a wet exit is demonstrated).
If the new members are first time kayakers I'll explain the sequence of
events in great detail, then demonstrate a wet exit.  When I demonstrate
mine I make
sure that I am very deliberate with each step and really take my time
getting out.  Then I'll ask each of the new members to describe the
sequence verbally.  I'll make sure that they repeat each step back
to me before they demonstrate their wet exit.

Inevitably, what happens is someone will tip upside down and forget
everything
I said, and I'll witness a mad scramble to get out of the boat and
breathe.  When that happens, I'll make them do it again. [snip]

***************************************************************************
PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed
here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire
responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author.
Submissions:     PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net
Subscriptions:   PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net
Website:         http://www.paddlewise.net/
***************************************************************************

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.4.0 : Thu Aug 21 2025 - 16:33:20 PDT