I posted this once before, but can't resist joining the throng: I carry a 21' tandem on a Hyunday Elantra with no bow or stern lines with not concerns for it coming off at Interstate speeds. How- 1) The Elantra is a wagon, with factory side rails, to which to clamp the Thule system. I bet the whole shebang that flew off that one car was a door frame clamp on model. 2) I use Thule saddles, only. No pads, no Yakima hully rolles - the saddles, properly spaced, are key. 3) A good tight tie-down with good straps and the end of the strap tied off for secondary security it doesn't come loose. The strap is looped around the bar on each side of the boat outside the saddle - I do not use the slot in the saddle. My point is not that bow and stern lines are a bad thing, but alternate arrangements can be safe. My 18' single is rock solid in the saddles (doesn't even waver) and the tandem only moves slightly in the toughest conditions (strong cross-wind gust, tractor-trailor flying by too close, crossing a big bridge in wind). Regards, Ellis *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I tie down hundreds of boats every summer and I agree that most boats can be safely held in place using saddles and two good camstraps. However, it's important to note that Yakima (I'm not sure about Thule) offers terrific assistance to their rack owners if something happens to the cargo while driving. Specifically for boats, Yakima goes to great measures to help you if your boat launches due to the rack failing, but only if you use proper bow and stern lines. In my opinion, the two minutes it takes to tie the bow and stern lines is worth the peace of mind just in case something fails. I've seen it happen and it ain't pretty. Mark Mastalski At 06:23 PM 4/16/01 , Ellis Andersen wrote: >My point is not that bow and stern lines are a bad thing, but alternate >arrangements can be safe. My 18' single is rock solid in the saddles >(doesn't even waver) and the tandem only moves slightly in the toughest >conditions (strong cross-wind gust, tractor-trailor flying by too close, >crossing a big bridge in wind). ___________________________________ Mark Mastalski, Assistant Director Cooperative Education & Internship Program University of Wisconsin - Madison 1415 Engineering Drive, Room 1150 Madison, WI 53706-1619 (608) 262-7504 (608) 262-7262 Fax www.engr.wisc.edu/services/ecs *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 4/16/2001 8:34:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ellis_at_magnus.net writes: > I carry a 21' tandem on a Hyunday Elantra with no bow or stern lines > with not concerns for it coming off at Interstate speeds. How- > > 1) The Elantra is a wagon, with factory side rails, to which to clamp > the Thule system. I bet the whole shebang that flew off that one car > was a door frame clamp on model. > And I bet the guy who designed the little clips that hold your factory rack to your Hyundai did so with the full and clear understanding that you were going to put the Queen Mary on your roof, Ellis. Yak and Thule make some really great rigs for factory racks, and the fit is solid on most factory racks. Problem is, a lot of factory racks are pretty low-tech on installation hardware. Don't know that I'd ever want to trust a rack on a Hyundai --- or on a Mercedes or an Audi --- without tiedowns. Jack Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Jo, I got some experiences with rackets, too. We got a Thule racket for our VW Passat. A strong system with claws special designed for this roof. There are little triangulars behind the upper sides of the claws. They hold the claws outside the basic foot so the claws fits the car roof flat and 100 per cent. Some time ago we lost one of these triangulars and it seems to be no problem. But normally I secure all boats by a front line to cars recovery claw. About 2 weeks ago I place one heavy Aleut Sea II, an old foldable double and a heavy K1 on the racket, so it was "full", donīt ask for the weight... This time I hadnīt towed a front line and after 2 miles something was scratching on the roof. What had happened? No front line, the boats bob up and down and because of the missing triangular (front racket) the claw flips away from the roof! Oh oh! I refit the claw but then I saw the problem. Without that triangular the claw couldnīt be flat to the roof. I īve had to find a new triangular! 60s thinking, then I take some tape and a little peace of close cell foam, press it and put tape around, press it behind the claw and fit it. Ready! The foam function as this little unconspicuous triangular. 2nd incident happened about 7 years ago. The car from a club member got an integrated deck rail (for rackets) and there have been 2 K1 on the racket. After half an hour the boats began to wave up and down. We stop, the front racket sprang out the rail because the rail was damaged. I was lucky, because I had fixed a front line down to the car. But we could do what we want, without special tools we couldnīt repair the deck rail. So I take a long webbing rope, put around the racket on each side and close it INSIDE the car, ready. No the racket was bombproof, but we had to pay attention to our heads because of the webbing rope running through the car above our heads. These and other incidents are the reason I always got more "unneeded" material with me, than other people. If something happens, I got a solution. I remember this remarkable day when we were on a 2 week paddling trip from school in Austria and Slowenia. My teacher had damaged his thumpkin nail and ask for "a little piece of tape". I open my waterproof barrel, and grap down to the ground and ask him "Which colour?" ... You must have seen his face! Anytime, if someone needs something their first way is me. Otherwise I always got the heaviest boats and bags. >Best way to avoid problems is to shock the potential problem with a solution, so the problem looks for another victim.< :-)))) whish you all the best Jochen ----- Original Message ----- From: <JCMARTIN43_at_aol.com> To: <ellis_at_magnus.net>; <PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net> Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 4:28 AM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Trailers / Bow Lines > In a message dated 4/16/2001 8:34:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > ellis_at_magnus.net writes: > > > > I carry a 21' tandem on a Hyunday Elantra with no bow or stern lines > > with not concerns for it coming off at Interstate speeds. How- > > > > 1) The Elantra is a wagon, with factory side rails, to which to clamp > > the Thule system. I bet the whole shebang that flew off that one car > > was a door frame clamp on model. > > > > And I bet the guy who designed the little clips that hold your factory rack > to your Hyundai did so with the full and clear understanding that you were > going to put the Queen Mary on your roof, Ellis. > > Yak and Thule make some really great rigs for factory racks, and the fit is > solid on most factory racks. Problem is, a lot of factory racks are pretty > low-tech on installation hardware. Don't know that I'd ever want to trust a > rack on a Hyundai --- or on a Mercedes or an Audi --- without tiedowns. > > Jack Martin > > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed > here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire > responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. > Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net > Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
It seems that quite a lot of PaddleWisers have experienced problems with boats on top of their cars. Although they describe minor problems, that only required pulling over and fixing something, try for a moment to imagine the worst-case scenario: A kayak that gets blown off your roof on the highway, sails across to the other side and hits the driver off a loaded schoolbus... Well, don't let me spoil your sleep tonight, imagine the rest for yourself. In my business, the oil business, we believe in "redundancy", a principle that I also use when tying a kayak to a car. The principle is: ANY part of the construction must be allowed to fail without everything collapsing. The normal way of tying a kayak to a car in Holland is fixing a trailer onto your roof, then fixing two kayak holders to the trailer, then fixing the kayak to the holders using ropes. In this way, whatever part breaks, your kayak looses one of its two supports, gives a stress on the remaining support that it is not designed for, and in a matter of minutes or seconds your kayak is gone. A bow line and a stern line make the whole construction redundant: Whatever part fails, there is always a part to back it up. If the bowline fails the trailer is the backup, if the trailer fails the bowline is the backup. As we all know, the driving part is the most dangerous part of a day of kayakking. Be safe! Actually, tying boats to a car should be part of every safety course in kayakking. Sometimes I am amazed by the knots and constructions people dare to use. Niels. (who only uses bowlines when he feels like it. I have total confidence in my own knots and technical insight.) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> It seems that quite a lot of PaddleWisers have experienced problems with > boats on top of their cars. Although they describe minor problems, that only > required pulling over and fixing something, try for a moment to imagine the > worst-case scenario: A kayak that gets blown off your roof on the highway, > sails across to the other side and hits the driver off a loaded schoolbus... I recollect a survey done some years ago, possibly by an insurance organization, that said that nearly 80% of all damage done to boats is done on land, not water. Mostly collisions involving trailers but also cartopped boats going astray. Suppose that you rear-end someone. Stop fast enough and your kayak's inertia will rip the racks off forward and spear into the car you just hit.... That could be very bad. Also, you've probably damaged the mounting area of the racks as well. The rear tiedown, at the very least, should be there to help prevent this. It could help restrain the boat and racks... I know of one person who ties another rear rope to the racks to be sure of this. For those reasons, my tiedown ropes are not minimal. I use 6 mm Prusik line which tests well over 2000 lbs. Joe P. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Joe Pylka wrote: > I recollect a survey done some years ago, possibly by an insurance > organization, that said that nearly 80% of all damage done to boats is done > on land, not water. Mostly collisions involving trailers but also cartopped > boats going astray. > Suppose that you rear-end someone. Stop fast enough and your > kayak's inertia will rip the racks off forward and spear into the car you > just hit....[snip] > The rear tiedown, at the very least, should be there to help prevent > this. It could help restrain the boat and racks... I know of one person > who ties another rear rope to the racks to be sure of this. That line to the rear rack is a good idea, Joe. I had not thought of that. It is perhaps better insurance than the rear tiedown, because if the bow of your yak extends past the front end of your vehicle, the _front_ tiedown should be the first to come into play in keeping the yak from sliding forward, inasmuch as the stern of the yak invariably is rearward of the rear bumper ... at least for sedans. On my Toyota canopy-equipped PU, I mount the forward rack over the center of the cab and the rear rack at the rear of the canopy. This puts the bow rearward of my front bumper, so neither tiedown would prevent the yak from sliding forward some. Either tiedown would keep the yak near my vehicle, and probably prevent a spearing of the vehicle ahead of me. Your buddy's rear rack backup line would be better insurance in my situation. Thanks for passing on the tip. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Niels said: It seems that quite a lot of PaddleWisers have experienced problems with boats on top of their cars.<snip> The normal way of tying a kayak to a car in Holland is fixing a trailer onto your roof, then fixing two kayak holders to the trailer, then fixing the kayak to the holders using ropes.<snip> Niels, I don't mean to be rude or anything, but in Canada, we usually tow our trailers behind our vehicles, not fix them to the roofs of our vehicles. Is this some kind of law there, or is it just because Holland is so small that the extra vehicle length with trailer behind would take up to much valuable space? 8-) On a more serious note, I've just installed a Class 3 trailer hitch on my van, so can now tow items. Does anyone have any good links to trailers that can carry kayaks/canoes? I'm looking for something that converts to a tent trailer and/or gear hauler, as opposed to a "kayak school multiple kayak trailer" one sometimes sees at symposiums and classes, etc. I was wanting to build/modify my own trailer. Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug wrote: >>Niels said: >> >>The normal way of tying a kayak to a car in Holland is fixing a >>trailer onto your roof, then fixing two kayak holders to the trailer, >>then fixing the kayak to the holders using ropes.<snip> > >Niels, I don't mean to be rude or anything, but in Canada, we >usually tow our trailers behind our vehicles, not fix them to the >roofs of our vehicles. Is this some kind of law there, or is it >just because Holland is so small that the extra vehicle length >with trailer behind would take up to much valuable space? 8-) I have traveled a million km on German highways, and during vacation time I shared the road with travelers from Holland migrating South. Apart from the yellow licence plate these guys were easy to tell by the camping trailers they had in tow. You see, the spot behind the car is usually already taken, thats the reason to come up with another idea since two trailers behind one vehicle are not allowed. But I agree a roof rack should do the job. ;) Ulli *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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