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From: Kathea and Ken <kayakfit_at_fidalgo.net>
subject: [Paddlewise] bow and stern lines
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 23:41:49 -0700
I'd like to endorse the earlier comment about tying the bow with two lines,
and the stern with two lines in order to get sideways vectors in opposition to
each other.  It is a good idea to use a hitch at the midpoint if using a
single line in two directions so the bow and/or stern can't slide on the line.
When cartopping heavier boats like a Laser sailboat or a heavy double, it is a
good idea to also use two lines running aft from the bow to stop the boat if
you have to put the brakes on hard.  None of the lines or straps should be
very tight.  If you tie a fiberglass or plastic boat tightly onto a roof on a
hot day it will often distort.  By using many lines you can secure the boat
without applying a lot of stress to it.  Guying the ends of the boat becomes
unnecessary when there is a lot of separation between the crossbars of the
rack, especially when good saddles are being used.  It becomes increasingly
important when the crossbars are only a few feet apart.





Ken Rasmussen





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From: Erik Sprenne <sprenne_at_netnitco.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] bow and stern lines
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 11:35:45 -0500
Absolutely no disagreement with any of Wayne's or Ken's comments.

My addition to this discussion is to ask that folks consider how the racks
are attached to the vehicle *if* they are considering using the proposed
tiedown system.

Wayne talks of tying the additional lines "somewhere on the car", and the
image on his site suggests that the 'somehwere' is the rack towers/uprights.
Ken adds clarification for using such a tie-down system, but also doesn't
discuss the attachment point.  If this 'somehwere on the car' is the
towers of the rack or the ends of the crossbars, then one still has a
single-point failure system if the racks are not securely attached to the
vehicle.  I suspect that both Wayne and Ken probably have good rack systems,
but ask that people consider their own rack systems in addition to
considering the proposed tiedown system.

The reason this is suggested - we have two vehicles, one of which such a
tiedown system would work on, and on the other of which it would not -
possibly presenting a hazard of great proportions.  The pickup has metals
brackets thru-bolted on the cap to provide the attachement point for Yakima
1A towers.  As the 1A towers very firmly grip the brackets, I have no qualms
at all on tying the entire load only to the racks with this system.

The Saturn ('99 SL1) uses Yakima Q Towers and clips (Q67 and Q68) that hold
the rack on the roof by squeezing the roof between the clips/towers.  The
Saturn has a plastic rain gutter molding attached to the edges of the roof
line, which makes the use of the rack system with the clips tenuous, and I
wouldn't be surprised if excessive forces - say those experienced in a
crash - would cause clip flexation, thereby allowing the racks and boats -
as a unit - to fly off the roof.  With the Saturn, we **always** use bow and
stern lines attached to the frame of the car.

One test or a rack system is to grab the end of the rack, and try to slide
it fore and aft on the vehicle.  If the rack system slides with the forces
you can apply with your hands and body, just think about coming to a very
sudden stop with all your 'toys' on the roof attached only to the
racks.......

Regards,
Erik Sprenne

Wayne Smith wrote:
>>>>>I have never seen the logic of the "bow and stern" lines, as most
people use them.  What I do is: (1-2) Tye the boat in two locations with
straps.  On the saddles.  Then:   (3) - Use an extra rope tied to the front
of the boat, parallel to the
ground and boat, tied somewhere on the car, amidship the boat. Then:   (4) -
Use an extra rope tied to the rear of the boat, parallel to the ground and
boat, tied somewhere to the car, amidship the boat.
If I really want Security:
Then:   (5) - Use an extra rope tied to the front of the boat, parallel to
the ground and boat, tied somewhere on the other side of the car, amidship
the boat.  Then:   (6) - Use an extra rope tied to the rear of the boat,
parallel to the ground and boat, tied somewhere to the other side of the
car, amidship the boat.
See  http://www.waynesmith.net/bow_stern.htm <<<<<


Ken Rasmussen wrote:
>>>>> I'd like to endorse the earlier comment about tying the bow with two
lines, and the stern with two lines in order to get sideways vectors in
opposition to each other.  It is a good idea to use a hitch at the midpoint
if using a single line in two directions so the bow and/or stern can't slide
on the line.
When cartopping heavier boats like a Laser sailboat or a heavy double, it is
a good idea to also use two lines running aft from the bow to stop the boat
if you have to put the brakes on hard.  None of the lines or straps should
be very tight.  If you tie a fiberglass or plastic boat tightly onto a roof
on a hot day it will often distort.  By using many lines you can secure the
boat without applying a lot of stress to it.  Guying the ends of the boat
becomes unnecessary when there is a lot of separation between the crossbars
of the rack, especially when good saddles are being used.  It becomes
increasingly important when the crossbars are only a few feet apart.<<<<<





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From: Wayne Smith <wsmith_at_cts.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] bow and stern lines
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 14:08:59 -0700
Erik Sprenne wrote:

> Absolutely no disagreement with any of Wayne's or Ken's comments.
>
> Wayne talks of tying the additional lines "somewhere on the car", and the
> image on his site suggests that the 'somehwere' is the rack towers/uprights.

Erik and all:

Yes - I have a great rack on my truck attached to the truck bed with 6 - Quarter
inch bolts - I tye ropes (3 - 6) to the rack, and not to the saddles nor saddle
rods.  It is a most secure system.

Wayne Smith

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From: Al Vazquez <alvazquez_at_kayakguide.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] bow and stern lines
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 19:29:52 -0500
I've been very happy with the "ultimate" safety lines I made by swaging small
loops onto the ends of 1/8" stainless, vinyl coated lifelines. I'm able to
loop the bottom end around my car or van frame inside the engine compartment
(but not near the engine) so that the cable comes out neatly between opportune
gaps around the hood. Each vehicle is different. But because my cables are
custom fitted to each vehicle, they don't have to be too tight yet they
certainly won't loosen or stretch. And they have enough horizontal play at the
top so that I can use them with any of my boats on each vehicle.

I fasten the boat end to stainless lifeline carrying loops I refitted on boats
with a marine combination lock, so the stainless cables and loops also serve
to discourage theft as well.

Swaging tools are provided for free use at West Marine stores that also sell
the lifelines or they can be purchased starting at about $25.
--
Al Vazquez
KayakGuide.com tm
the Place to Share Kayaking & Canoeing tm

Bob Volin wrote:

> Adrian,
>    Be sure not to tighten the bow/stern lines, and certainly don't
> overtighten them.  Bumps in the road and turbulance from passing trucks and
> cars will create stresses on the boat.  These are normally tolerated as
> kayaks normally flex (to various degrees, depending on design and
> materials).  But tight b/s lines can create additional stress that may
> generate cracks in gelcoat.
>
>     Just a little slack in the b/s lines allows for normal flex but still
> provides the extra insurance against the flying boat syndrome.
>
> Bob V


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