I hate cutting, sanding, grinding, or any other kind of shaping of minicell foam. I don't really know why I hate it, but I always manage to butcher many innocent blocks of foam before getting frustrated and settling for a poorly fitting boat. I'm big enough that I can get away with it, since I always fit pretty tightly into my boats without needing additional foam. But comfort does tend to suffer. But now I've got a whole new system that results in a perfectly fitting, custom molded foam support every time. The only tools that are needed are a scale, some popsicle sticks, some plastic food bags, and the always handy latex gloves. The foam used is two-part expanding resin foam, which "blows" out to large volumes and becomes very rigid and durable (though slightly brittle) in about five minutes after mixing. The process is extremely simple... mix the foam in the desired quantity, pour into plastic bag, sit inside boat, and drape plastic bag around the desired body part. In minutes, the foam expands to create a perfect snug fit between your boat and your chosen body part. At this point, the next step is to attach the foam to the boat using a fastening material such as duct tape, glue, or liquid nails. It also possible to optionally put a layer of cushioning neoprene on the outer surface of the foam for extreme comfort. I blew some foam thigh braces into my Arctic Tern just before a Lummi Island sea kayak trip a couple of weekends ago. These braces support both the top and bottom of my knee/thigh, but do not restrict egress in any way. And the under-thigh support is *wonderful*, because it greatly reduces lower body fatigue on long trips. I found it possible to relax my legs for long periods at a time without removing them from the braces, and the instant ability to edge was always there if I needed it. Under-thigh support makes edging *so* much easier. Learning how to use the proper proportions of foam and getting the timing a placement just right are a little tricky, and much hilarity can ensue, but the final product is well worth the effort. I've now blown foam into two whitewater boats and the sea kayak of another friend, with the total time for each dropping down to about 20 minutes. And most of that time is spent sitting in the boat letting the foam expand around you. I've found that beer, books, and music help pass the boredom. I find this MUCH more appealing than spending several hours carving and shaping minicell foam into unrecognizable and largely useless lumps. Cheers, kevin ----------------------------------------------------------------- Kevin Whilden Your Planet Earth kevin_at_yourplanetearth.org http://www.yourplanetearth.org voice: (206) 788-0281 fax: (206) 788-028 ----------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Thanks for the tip on UV susceptibility. I know this isn't a problem though, as long as the foam is covered with something to block stray UV, and as long as there are no intense UV sources inside the kayak and/or the kayak is not transparent. The reason I know this, is because I learned the technique from a friend who foamed my whitewater boat several years ago. Even though I sold this boat to a friend, it is still going quite strong as I saw it just recently. Cheers, Kevin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Denton" <gulfstream_at_flinet.com> To: "Kevin Whilden" <kevin_at_yourplanetearth.org>; <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net> Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 12:41 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] blowing foam > It's been my experience with this type of foam, used for packaging, that it > breaks down rapidly with exposure to uv and just crumbles away after a > while. I know there are foams made for exterior use but I have no experience > with them. > > cu > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
It's been my experience with this type of foam, used for packaging, that it breaks down rapidly with exposure to uv and just crumbles away after a while. I know there are foams made for exterior use but I have no experience with them. cu *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
--One other problem that I'vs seen here in NJ where people tried this in an open canoe is that it is an open cell foam that easily fills with water, losing some if not all buoyancy (these were used for end flotation). He used the foam-in-a-can for insulation around door frames. Is the one you're using a closed cell formulation? Joe P. > It's been my experience with this type of foam, used for packaging, that it > breaks down rapidly with exposure to uv and just crumbles away after a > while. I know there are foams made for exterior use but I have no experience > with them. > cu *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Kevin Whilden wrote: > > I hate cutting, sanding, grinding, or any other kind of shaping of minicell > foam. [snip] > But now I've got a whole new system that results in a perfectly fitting, > custom molded foam support every time. The only tools that are needed are a > scale, some popsicle sticks, some plastic food bags, and the always handy > latex gloves. The foam used is two-part expanding resin foam, which "blows" > out to large volumes and becomes very rigid and durable (though slightly > brittle) in about five minutes after mixing. Kevin's got a great system going; I think I might be ready to try this. Plastic bags are critical, and don't skimp in the thickness; ditto the latex gloves. Two caveats: 1. One of the components of these polyurethane foams is a possible sensitizer for some folks, and skin contact is a definite no-no. Not an issue for most. 2. On _long_, persistent submersion, PU foam breaks down (takes many weeks/months, IIRC), so that this stuff is a compromised material for flotation in boats. Probably not an issue for the use here. Bob Denton has already mentioned the UV degradation. For those who are environmentally conscious, the "blowing agent" in PU foam is no longer a CFC (ozone killer), but plain old CO2, from a controlled amount of water in the formulation. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR who enjoys sculpting minicell and sometimes glues chunks back in to cover his mistakes! *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Joe Pylka wrote: > > --One other problem that I'vs seen here in NJ where people tried this in an > open canoe is that it is an open cell foam that easily fills with water, > losing some if not all buoyancy (these were used for end flotation). He > used the foam-in-a-can for insulation around door frames. Is the one you're > using a closed cell formulation? The foam-in-a-can variety is inferior to the two-part stuff Kevin W. is recommending. I believe its resistance to water-induced degradation is lesser, and its porosity is very irregular, tending to make it more open-cell. The two-part formulations eventually get wet, also, in my experience, but that's probably not an issue if the craft is thoroughly dried between weekend ventures. I thought I had a link to data sheets for these PU foams, but I can't locate it right now. I bet Erik Sprenne has good links, and Dana Dickson, also. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "Joe Pylka" <pylka_at_castle.net> <snip> Is the one you're using a closed cell formulation? Yes, it is closed-cell. >From Dave Kruger, >1. One of the components of these polyurethane foams is a possible sensitizer >for some folks, and skin contact is a definite no-no. Not an issue for most. Actually, the label on the can says it has a cyanide component and highly recommends avoiding skin contact and using it in a ventilated area. (yikes) >2. On _long_, persistent submersion, PU foam breaks down (takes many >weeks/months, IIRC), so that this stuff is a compromised material for flotation >in boats. Probably not an issue for the use here. Like I said, I have seen this foam installed on boats several years ago, and the foam is still good. Of course these boats are not constantly submerged. >From Evan Dallas, >Any idea of how that foam insulation that comes in an aerosol can would work for >this? Terrible. Even if this stuff had decent physical properties (as Dave K. says otherwise), it would be very difficult to get it to fit properly. One the critical elements of my method is that it takes 1-2 minutes for the foam to start blowing once it is mixed. This gives you time to get inside your kayak and position the bag in the right spot. I've got digital photos of my last attempt at foaming a boat. Perhaps I'll have time to put them on a web page by this weekend. That is if anyone is interested.... :) Also, does anyone remember a story from many years ago (may have been on Wavelength) of someone trying to fill their boat with this foam for flotation, but they miscalculated the amount and it filled their, burst the seams, and started covering the living room carpet. I would love to hear that story again :) Kevin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
We used to have a machine that blew the stuff for packaging. You could adjust the mixture and use different components for different flexibilities. We used to have a blast every now and then and foam all sorts of things. After the stuff sat out in the sun for a week or so it was useless. cya *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I would quite enjoy this. > I've got digital photos of my last attempt at foaming a boat. Perhaps I'll > have time to put them on a web page by this weekend. That is if anyone is > interested.... :) > -- ¤ Gabriel L Romeu ¤ http://studiofurniture.com + /diary or + /paint *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> > I thought I had a link to data sheets for these PU foams, but I can't locate it > right now. I bet Erik Sprenne has good links, and Dana Dickson, also. > Sorry, can't help this time and no time to search. How 'bout it Kevin - what brand do you use? Regards, Erik *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.4.0 : Thu Aug 21 2025 - 16:33:21 PDT