Harold wrote: >>>>Just out of curiosity, what stick do you usually use?<<<<< A big one, it allows me to speak softly.;-) I usually paddle with a 220 Std. blade Lightning or a 220 Epic Wayfarer both in lightweight graphite and left feathered to 75 degrees (I'm right handed). Harold wrote: >>>>Amen, Brother. Though even ten years ago, I could pull my body apart with a 220 Camano. My body is built more for the 220 Little Dipper. Anything larger and I have to be careful or I'll strip my gears.<<<< Is it so hard to be careful? I've always wondered why not just not yank so hard at first if using a stiff shaft or other paddle that folks claim tears them up. Harold wrote: >>>>I see traditional (straight) paddles as making more sense because in coastal kayaking the wind comes at you from all quarters. The feathered paddle only helps (to any large degree IMHO) when you are paddling into the wind. In a crosswind it is a liability and downwind no help. So 2/3 of the time the straight paddle wins.<<<< Are you going to trying to say that the wind helps an unfeathered paddler going down wind? Let's look at that. The upper blade moves forward roughly 2.5 times the speed of the kayak. Say the kayak is going 4 knots into a 10 knot wind. The relative wind on the blades is thus 20 knots at the top of the stroke. The same area on the kayak would be 14 knots. Because the force increases at the square of the speed there is a little over twice the force on the unfeathered paddle blade as an equal sized flat area on your body or boat. Now turn around and go downwind. with the same energy expenditure you could probably make 5 knots but for the sake of consistency I'll keep the speed at 4 knots downwind in a 10 knot wind. Blade speed 10 knots, wind speed 10 knots. Relative wind 0 knots, or no help at all. In reality the wind is going to have to be over 12 knots for one to get the slightest help from the unfeathered blades, and then because of the square of the speed thing the force will be very small relative to the loss going into the wind. Because you can't go as fast into a wind you will also spend a lot more time paddling into the wind as going downwind to cover the same distance. Now let's look at side winds. While it is true that the wind can get under the blade if one takes too high a stroke in an extreme sidewinder I have had no trouble learning not to expose my blade flat to the wind in these kind of conditions. not since my earliest experiences in extreme wind (Friday the 13th Storm in Seattle--gusts reached 79 mph) have I had to let go of the paddle with the upper hand to avoid a capsize. I'm careful not to expose the blade flat to the wind in those conditions. But what would I do if the wind caught my body too upright and started to knock me over. Probably I'd do a reflex brace without thinking. With a feathered paddle the blade would end up high at the end of the brace but edge on to the wind. If I was paddling unfeathered my automatic reflexes just might get me in trouble. The big win is in headwinds, minor advantage to unfeathered at best in strong tailwinds and some arguable points either way in side winds. Harold wrote: >>>>An aside -- I found using feathered paddles in the wind easier when all of them were still 90* instead of the diluted angles of today. The 70*-and-less offsets make the upper blade climb and stall in a heavy wind and this adds a lot of tension either trying to control the effect or ignore it.<<<< This was my finding as well which is why I'm disturbed by the new 45 or 60 degree feather fad. 45 to 60 works better than any other feather in light winds but they are hell in a real blow. Unfortunately most using them have never had the experience to find this out before purchasing the paddle. Harold wrote: >>>>However, on a recent trip to Belize I trusted that the friend who was providing me with equipment would have a suitable paddle and thus wound up using 250 cm Camano for my spare and an approximate 100-110 cm Skinny Dipper (the beloved old-style Werner Little Dipper) for my main paddle. I liked the short length when paddling in winds, but had a devil of a time correcting course without extending. The problem is that you don't get much extension out of Euro without shifting your hand to the end of the blade, and I find that uncomfortable and perhaps inadvisable in rough conditions.<<<< 100 cm is not even 40", I'm sure you mean 200 to 210. The blade on my Std. Lightning is 16" long, I think the blade on an old Little Dipper was the same as the Camano which is over 20" long. That's 8 less inches of shaft to move your hand around on, now add another 4 to 8 inches of shaft because my paddle is a 220 and I find I have plenty of leverage for anything I want to do without having to grip the blade to extend the paddle. This is one of the reasons I like short blades. Easier clearance over the kayak while still maintaining a lower gear ratio is another. Harold wrote: >>>>For me, smaller (narrower -- not necessarily smaller area) is definitely vastly superior in the air, particularly in winds. And I think that there must be a point where increases in size and/or length no longer result in reduced slippage in the range of power generated by most of us. However, it just hasn't been my experience that this has caught up to me within the paddle size range I use.<<<< Werner Paddles used to correctly (I believe) explain that their narrower "Little Dipper" paddles had a longer edge and the turbulence around that longer edge increased the drag (grip on the water) for more power. If this is true the narrower paddle with the same blade area should be affected more by the wind. Later in the same brochure they said the Little Dipper slipped more in the water so was easier on the joints. I don't think they can have it both ways, it either grips better or it slips more, but not both at the same time. I've tried using a 200cm river paddle but the stroke rate was just too fast (during a fast cruising speed) to be comfortable and maintain coordination when I was tired. Sort of like too low a gear on a bicycle. I once tested the Skinny Dipper, Camano and San Juan paddles in 220 and 230 lengths over a short, closed course by paddling with one after the other at what a perceived-constant rate of output. My findings were that I took 10% fewer strokes as I jumped from blade to blade, going from smallest to largest, and also 10% fewer strokes going from the 220 to the 230 in each blade type. I did not notice the slight increase in stress on my body during any of the tests.<<<<< What increase in stress would there be, you said you were maintaining a perceived constant output. Harold wrote: >>>> However, when talking about differences of 10 cm or so (2-1/2 inches per side) do you think this really matters that much for a touring kayak? I can see the critical nature of length in Rodeo and performance surfing, but not so much in touring. If you start comparing a 220 to the very long 250-ish paddles favored by some in the NW (is this still the trend?) then, yes -- the difference is easy to feel.<<<<< Wouldn't that be 2" per side, 10cm (/2.54) is about 4 inches not 5. Bill Hansen wrote: I know that some very good paddlers like to rotate their wrists, and/or bend their elbows, during the stroke. I've been taught that one should aim for an almost-straight elbow, with just a flick of elbow flexion as the on-water side of the paddle comes out of the water. This "straight" elbow paddling increases potential power and endurance, because one is using back and abdominal muscles, which are much larger than anyone's arm muscles, and this is true whether you're paddling "Greenland-style" or "Euro-style". If we're citing well-know British paddling instructors, Nigel Foster of the BCU makes this point repeatedly during his classes. Nigel is no longer with the BCU. Early in my paddling life I read you should to straighten the upper arm first but in discussing strokes with some Olympic Team members (pre wing) when I was later racing, they told me that they have to work to try to keep from straightening their upper arm too soon. They said it is much easier to push out that arm than to draw the other back so they wanted to save that boost for a time when the blade is pulling more straight back rather than early in the stroke. However, if you're not real strong it might be better to keep your arms straight and use torso rotation. A bent arm might never be able to be straightened out during the torso rotation and might collapse more (rather than straighten out) under the load of a hard stroke. In that case you would be using the energy of your arm muscles up, just trying to hold station, but wouldn't be gaining anything by it and would be better off to straighten both arms to use them like a rope and a ramrod. Didn't someone once say "Different strokes for different folks". James Tibensky wrote: >>>>>Regarding the push on the forward stroke - Hold the paddle as if to make a forward stroke but put the blade into the water about at your knee instead of your ankle. Now push as fast and hard as you can with the top arm but do not move the lower one at all. Use the lower hand as a fulcrum but do not move it. The boat creeps about ten inches forward. Now extend the top arm with the elbow locked straight so that it can only give a little push downward. Then twist your upper body and pull with your lower arm as in a normal stroke. Or do a normal stroke with as little help from the top arm as possible. The boat will jump forward about a boat length. Or more!<<<< This is why it is so much easier to push than to pull (and most would be racers do it too early) you get less out of it. Ellis wrote (among a lot of good stuff): >>>>>Paddle blade feather/bent wrist (over 70 degrees, requires bent wrist, regardless of technique)<<<<< If you release your grip with both hands for a split second as you are raising your "control hand" for the next stroke you will find that the rotating moment you put on the paddle (from pivoting about the elbows) will continue and spin the paddle into the position you want without ever bending the wrists. I often demonstrate this by letting the paddle spin through about 390 degrees before catching it in the paddling position for the next stroke. If I can do that it isn't hard to spin the paddle the 30 degrees I need to go from the 45 degrees naturally put on it during the stroke and the somewhat near 75 degrees I need to get it to. Alternately, I can hold the paddle very loosely as I start the stroke with the blade at the wrong angle and the lower corner of the blade hitting the water first rotates the paddle into position for me. This is one reason I like a very well balanced paddle (that does not have a heavy side that wants to spin the paddle in your hands due to gravity). I use a very loose grip unless the wind is really screaming. With a well balanced and forgiving paddle I don't have to grip it at all to paddle. To demonstrate this I can make a circle with my thumb and forefinger touching tightly at the tips and paddle just fine with the paddle rattling around in both the "A-okay" signs. You don't need to grip hard to push and pull hard. Mike wrote: >>>>>It's too bad that John Winters isn't around these days, cause I'm sure he'd have some interesting comments on this. I've spoken to him a couple of times about paddle design (last time exactly a year ago this coming weekend) and he's pointed out that this notion that the blades "hardly slip" is a misconception.<<<< Yes we've been around this block before and I tried without success to find John's comments on the subject in the old digests (what should I search for that will not give me scores of other hits?) Mike wrote further: >>>>It's interesting that avid paddlers feel that the paddle blades don't slip. I've watched many canoe and kayak paddle strokes trying to understand exactly what's going on. They slip a lot! Paddle with part of the blade above water and watch how far the vortex travels from the blade while it's in the water (don't confuse it with the persistence of the vortex after the stroke is over). That's paddle motion. The problem is that you have a hard time separating the relative motions of the paddle compared to the kayak, you compared to the water and the paddle compared to the water. All other things being equal, I'd not discount the significance of blade size<<<<< Yes, even a big blade moves some through the water (it sort of scoops out a divot with the blade tip moving the most) but the harder the stroke the less difference that blade area difference will make. My point is not that they don't move but that there isn't much difference during a hard stroke as to how much they move so the stroke rate is hardly affected (except the big heavy blade will take longer to get into position for the next stroke). Also the point where the paddle enters and exits the water will be just about the same throughout the stroke. Paddle next to lily pads sometime and notice that the point on the water's surface the shaft penetrates stays in the same place relative to the lily pad. Now they tell me a properly used wing paddle comes out of the water ahead of where it went in to it. That's even better than a good grip on the water for a racer. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************Received on Fri May 11 2001 - 09:13:11 PDT
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