Here's a question I've struggled with for several years. How do I achieve maximum paddling efficiency and economy of motion while simultaneously ensuring that there's a cold beer waiting for me on some deserted beach at the end of the day? Tying a beer onto each end of my paddle appears to be an ingenious solution to this dilemma, and has some additional advantages not mentioned in the original post: 1) The added weight on the paddle helps maximize the workout and body conditioning produced by an otherwise average paddling trip. 2) Having a cold one on both port and starboard helps ensure that I will look in both directions frequently, thereby ensuring that I get maximum scenic pleasure from the outing. 3) No matter how hard I paddle, those pesky beers are still out of reach and unattainable. This adds an important element of motivation to an otherwise routine crossing. To achieve a similar motivational effect I had considered dangling an apple from a pole mounted on the bow, but then I don't really like apples. 4) Being a home-brewer and having dabbled in various recipes, I've noticed that significant agitation of the beer-in-question may actually improve the flavor, if done properly. The next scientific question which begs to be answered is whether said beers attached to the paddle should be canned or bottled. Canned beer is lighter, making for easier paddling, but it doesn't taste as good - bottled beer tasted better and provides a better workout but poses a potential hazard of breakage. Perhaps we should consult the "beeriodic table". Craig Olson Bellingham, WA http://www.craigolson.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "Craig Olson" <craigo_at_nas.com> > The next scientific question which begs to be answered is whether said beers attached to the paddle > should be canned or bottled. Canned beer is lighter, making for easier paddling, but it doesn't > taste as good - bottled beer tasted better and provides a better workout but poses a potential > hazard of breakage. Given that you're dealing with American beer, perhaps I can suggest saving money and using Nalgene containers full of dishwater. They won't break and won't spray when opened after a hard workout. Shouldn't affect the taste or body. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Very insightful post by Craig Olson, but he neglected to mention an obvious biomechanical advantage of his system. To be specific, Craig wrote: > 2) Having a cold one on both port and starboard helps ensure that > I will look in both directions frequently, thereby ensuring that I > get maximum scenic pleasure from the outing. If you actually try this (first thing I did after reading Craig's post) you will find that looking at each beer with each stroke promotes proper torso rotation! Using my knot meter, as verified by my differentially corrected GPS (with "heads up" display), I determined that the improved stroke mechanics resulted in a 7.3 percent improvement in efficiency--defined as per Taylor--about equivalent to the improvement realized through the use of a wing paddle. I suspect a further improvement could be obtained if one were to supplement the beers with a bottle of Aquavit dangling from a pole mounted on the bow, rather than an apple. (An apple?!? Who ever heard of an apple with a beer chaser?) I should note that I used a "Euro" paddle. One can only guess at the remarkable improvement to be had if this technique were to be combined with a Greenland stick. Skål! Dan Hagen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 03:02 PM 5/21/01 -0700, you wrote: >The next scientific question which begs to be answered is whether said beers attached to the paddle >should be canned or bottled. Canned beer is lighter, making for easier paddling, but it doesn't >taste as good - bottled beer tasted better and provides a better workout but poses a potential >hazard of breakage. A friend made in important discovery regarding canned beer when windsurfing with a backpack of refreshment. Upon an unexpected dismount he was heard to exclaim "BUD floats". An important discovery for those who might get wet. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
The Greenlandic "Skal" or "cheers!" is "kasuuta!" pronounced Kuh - ZHOO - tuh. Don't want to offend that Greenlandic paddle, since we know what happens when a paddle goes bad! Quyanaq for listening. [Thank you] Jim Tibensky _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dan Hagen makes some very good points as to the biomechanical advantages associated with proper torso rotation as it relates to paddling efficiency. It's true that the bulk of paddling power comes from the torso and not from the arms, however, Dan neglected to mention a couple things - specifically: 1) Rotating the torso in order to look at the paddle (or beers tied onto the paddle) in the manner that Dan describes requires that the torso be rotated past the point of maximum efficiency, specifically 53.2 degrees from the bow. For maximum paddling efficiency, the paddle should be withdrawn from the water at about 90 to 105 degrees port and starboard from the bow and his system seems to imply that we should look at the beer to the detriment of our paddle craft, although I could be mistaken in my evaluation of his system. The head may rotate as much as 90 degrees but the torso, defined herein as the pectoral plane, should be limited to about 50 degrees either way due to obvious constraints associated with flexibility, old age & related topics. 2) Since Dan used a differentially corrected GPS display with "heads up" display it may be assumed that his results may not have been adequately corrected for other system variables. The "heads up" display is inherently faulty in that no adjustments or corrections are applied for parallax, commonly described as "perceived error caused by improper viewing angle" and this can add more error than all the GPS error budget items combined. I would ask that other, more knowledgeable, list participants please comment on this issue. Craig Olson *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Craig Olson <craigo_at_nas.com> wrote: > Dan Hagen makes some very good points as to the biomechanical advantages associated with proper > torso rotation as it relates to paddling efficiency. It's true that the bulk of paddling power > comes from the torso and not from the arms, however, Dan neglected to mention a couple things - > specifically: > > 1) Rotating the torso in order to look at the paddle (or beers tied onto the paddle) in the manner > that Dan describes requires that the torso be rotated past the point of maximum efficiency, > specifically 53.2 degrees from the bow. The key phrase here is "peripheral vision". By using one's peripheral vision, it is possible to track the beers visually without over-rotating. As with all advanced paddling techniques, practice makes perfect. > 2) Since Dan used a differentially corrected GPS display with "heads up" display it may be assumed > that his results may not have been adequately corrected for other system variables. The "heads up" > display is inherently faulty in that no adjustments or corrections are applied for parallax, > commonly described as "perceived error caused by improper viewing angle" and this can add more > error than all the GPS error budget items combined. Ah, flame bait! It sounds like you have bought into the standard FCC line regarding the limitations of heads-up displays in sea kayaking applications. All I can say is that the parallax issue has been shown to be a red herring. Such problems are a simple case of operator error--not an inherent flaw in the system. I could say more, but I choose not to escalate the debate. Dan Hagen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Just how much torso rotation is normal? I know it will be different for everybody, but I find this very difficult. When seated in the kayak, I am almost at the limits of my flexibility, as far as sitting with a back straight posture with my legs straight out in front of me (yes, they are flexed as much as my kayak allows). I had read that one person had found success in the idea of getting the pfd zipper across the center line on each stroke. I tried to do that and it felt stupid and clunky. Later I forgot about the idea of trying to 'move the pfd' and just concentrated on getting my shoulders to work with the stroke and that felt better, but still a little unnatural, but I could see how I could get used to it. My shoulders were only moving 4"+ for and aft total per stroke and I really wasn't moving my pfd at all. My pfd was about as tight as I bared to have and and still allowed myself the luxury of breathing, but using that as a rotation guage or incentive really felt self defeating. Any other checks or tricks to ensuring that I am using more than just my arms? Consiquenty, it feels very relaxing to just 'lean back' into the back rest and paddle with just my arms. How much pressure should one be exerting on the back rest while properly stroking? Marvin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
You will see lots of ways of refining the torso rotation. mine is paddling with straight arms for a couple of minutes eventually integrating it with a more typical stroke. skylakeboatworks_at_yahoo.com wrote: > > Just how much torso rotation is normal? I know it will be different for > everybody, but I find this very difficult. When seated in the kayak, I am > almost at the limits of my flexibility, as far as sitting with a back > straight posture with my legs straight out in front of me (yes, they are > flexed as much as my kayak allows). I had read that one person had found > success in the idea of getting the pfd zipper across the center line on each > stroke. I tried to do that and it felt stupid and clunky. Later I forgot > about the idea of trying to 'move the pfd' and just concentrated on getting > my shoulders to work with the stroke and that felt better, but still a > little unnatural, but I could see how I could get used to it. My shoulders > were only moving 4"+ for and aft total per stroke and I really wasn't moving > my pfd at all. My pfd was about as tight as I bared to have and and still > allowed myself the luxury of breathing, but using that as a rotation guage > or incentive really felt self defeating. Any other checks or tricks to > ensuring that I am using more than just my arms? Consiquenty, it feels very > relaxing to just 'lean back' into the back rest and paddle with just my > arms. How much pressure should one be exerting on the back rest while > properly stroking? > > Marvin > -- € Gabriel L Romeu € http://studiofurniture.com + /diary or + /paint *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: <skylakeboatworks_at_yahoo.com> . Later I forgot > about the idea of trying to 'move the pfd' and just concentrated on getting > my shoulders to work with the stroke and that felt better, but still a > little unnatural, but I could see how I could get used to it. My shoulders > were only moving 4"+ for and aft total per stroke and I really wasn't moving > my pfd at all. --Which, I think, could be where your difficulty originates. Just sitting here in front of the monitor (and using my 'peripheral vision'...) I tried rotating my shoulders only. I could do this just fine; the rotation was centered around my clavicles. But in a kayak very little of my large back muscles would have become involved in moving the paddle. When I consciously began that rotation around the hips, then all those muscles came into play. To me, actually, that was more "natural". I suspect that you also are moving your arms to get the stroke distance you desire. Try not to do that, holding the paddle in a mostly fixed position and concentrate initially on starting that rotation at your hips. For me, that pfd zipper seems to go about from 10 to 2 O'clock, more or less. When I'm stroking into a turn, it's really only to 9:30 or 2:30. Don't seem to need much more than that. Does that seem uncomfortable at firs?. Certainly. But with practice it will become natural. I was on the Fencing team in college long ago. When I started I discovered muscles in my thighs I never knew existed and they complained mightily. But it was necessary to get them used to this new stress in order to accomplish what I needed to do. It didn't take that long, and then I was able to go on with what I really needed to do. Joe P. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
You've already got some good tips [paddle with locked elbows, concentrate the rotation at the waist instead of shoulders], but let me add my two hundreths of a dollar worth. This rotation thing was a big deal for me when I took up sprint racing. It was in 1966, so maybe what I learned is a little outdated, but here it is for what it's worth. [Exactly two cents probably] The Scandinavian stroke had very little arm flex, it is almost all torso rotation. The paddle doesn't go very far from horizontal, both hands stay quite low. If you exaggerate this, you will get the kinetic "feel" of the stroke that uses more torso than arm: Lock your elbows, as Gabriel suggested, swing at the waist, as Joe suggested, keep the paddle low, and push forcefully with right foot and leg on the right side stroke, left leg on left stroke. Close your eyes and pay attention to what you are feeling. The goal is to feel these same trunk muscles working in your normal stroke. It is very important that you lean very slightly FORWARD, not back. A butt band instead of a back band helps, it allows the forward lean. Even if you have a high back band or your rear is held in place by the cockpit coaming, don't lean back. It really shortens your stroke, it pulls the bow up [which shortens the boat and slows it slightly], and it makes the quick freeing of the blade from the water at the end of the stroke harder to do. The pressure on the backband comes from the legs, so the more you use them, the more pressure and the more important the band becomes. I had mentioned in an earlier post that I knew a 500 meter world champion from Poland who routinely broke footbraces and ripped seats off their moorings [sprint boats have seats with very high backs that act as a backband], that's how hard he pushed with his legs. The way I learned to use my torso was to stand in front of a full-length mirror and paddle with a light iron bar [a short paddle would do, or even a broomstick, but I was also developing my shoulder muscles]. I made a paddling motion and aimed by top hand directly at my nose reflected in the mirror. I exaggerated the rotation a lot. I found my hips doing a "hula" motion up and down, which is not good in the boat [but quite OK for this mirror exercise], so I then had to learn to keep the rotation in a horizontal plane. In the boat you will find your legs "bicycling" - it shows that you're using them strongly as well as rotating well. After two months of this my style in the boat caught up. When I taught at the Madawaska Kanu Centre I was always the poster child for torso rotation, so I must have learned the lesson well. And I was successful in sprint, slalom, downriver and marathon racing, so the proof is in the pudding. Hope this adds something useful to your growing library on the forward stroke. Jim Tibensky ps Being flexible really helps. Bob Anderson's wonderful book "Stretching" can help with that. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
So, I should feel the stokes in my legs. Which means I should make sure that I am properly fitted/tight in my boat. Hmmm. More work to be done. >From this I presume that any back support/seat rest/back band should only support the very small of the back, or more actually, just keep your pelvis locked into the boat, as I really want to be rotatin all of my spine. If I am really doing all this rotating, I will be doing quite a bit of rotating of my spray skirt. Maybe I should have left more play in the tube/deck of the skirt. Right now it is nice and 'drum' tight. Marvin From: "James Tibensky" <jtibensky_at_msn.com> > The pressure on the backband comes from the legs, so the more you use them, > the more pressure and the more important the band becomes. I had mentioned > in an earlier post that I knew a 500 meter world champion from Poland who > routinely broke footbraces and ripped seats off their moorings [sprint boats > have seats with very high backs that act as a backband], that's how hard he > pushed with his legs. > > The way I learned to use my torso was to stand in front of a full-length > mirror and paddle with a light iron bar [a short paddle would do, or even a > broomstick, but I was also developing my shoulder muscles]. I made a > paddling motion and aimed by top hand directly at my nose reflected in the > mirror. I exaggerated the rotation a lot. I found my hips doing a "hula" > motion up and down, which is not good in the boat [but quite OK for this > mirror exercise], so I then had to learn to keep the rotation in a > horizontal plane. In the boat you will find your legs "bicycling" - it > shows that you're using them strongly as well as rotating well. After two > months of this my style in the boat caught up. When I taught at the > Madawaska Kanu Centre I was always the poster child for torso rotation, so I > must have learned the lesson well. And I was successful in sprint, slalom, > downriver and marathon racing, so the proof is in the pudding. > > Hope this adds something useful to your growing library on the forward > stroke. > > Jim Tibensky > ps > Being flexible really helps. Bob Anderson's wonderful book "Stretching" can > help with that. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Just how much torso rotation is normal? Paddling with straight arms, as already mentioned, is probably the best way to accomplish what you are trying to figure out. The technique is simple, just lock your elbows and paddle. The only way you can paddle the boat with your arms locked is by using torso rotation. Once you get the hang of it, bend your elbows just enough to feel comfortable and continue paddling as you did with your elbows locked. If you can do this then you should have pretty good torso rotation working for you. The problem is that I find that quite a large number of people are unable to paddle with their elbows locked. They just can't do it! I guess it's sort of like rubbing your stomach with one hand while patting your head with the other. Not everyone is able to easily accomplish this. So another technique you might try is to sit comfortably in your boat with your back more or less straight. Hold your paddle comfortably out in front of you at about chest height or slightly below, elbows slightly bent. Now slowly, and gently. twist your torso with your paddle from one side to the other. Imagine you are simply limbering up your torso with this twisting exercise. Once you have twisted a number of times from one side to the other in the air, keep slowly twisting, but drop one end after the other of your paddle into the water as you do. You might also try to watch your paddle blade with each stroke. Turning your head with each paddle stroke can help facilitate the torso rotation. >Consiquenty, it feels very relaxing to just 'lean back' into the back rest and paddle with just my arms. This is something that is commonly resorted to by people who have poorly developed stomach muscles. Perhaps you need to work on that area some. Good luck, Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Marvin, You're about to get my professional opinion, so try not to get offended. Remember, you asked for it... The preferred technique you described, leaning back and paddling with your arms, is a L-A-Z-Y way to kayak. :) Fine if you only want to toodle around on a flat lake for 30 minutes, but totally worthless on a long trip or in windy conditions. You mentioned feeling awkward rotating your torso -- this is a normal feeling. After 30 minutes, it will stop feeling awkward and you'll be used to it henceforth. The reason it feels awkward is twofold. One, because we humans rarely engage in such active torso rotation in normal life. Two, because nearly every skill in kayaking is counter-intuitive. If it feels wrong, there's a good chance that it is actually right. Chew on that for a bit... One other possibility why leaning back feels good is that you have bad back support. You may consider installing a good back band. Rigid seat backs are not so great. Many people have given you good advice for activating your torso during the stroke. But it sounded to me like you were able to do it, but just didn't like it. Nevertheless, torso rotation is such a fundamental skill, that I also cannot resist commenting on how to do it. But I'll restrict my comments to a couple of observations on what Scott said below: ----- Original Message ----- From: <KiAyker_at_aol.com> To: <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net> Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 5:09 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Torso rotation > > Just how much torso rotation is normal? > > Paddling with straight arms, as already mentioned, is probably the best > way to accomplish what you are trying to figure out. The technique is simple, > just lock your elbows and paddle. The only way you can paddle the boat with > your arms locked is by using torso rotation. Once you get the hang of it, > bend your elbows just enough to feel comfortable and continue paddling as you > did with your elbows locked. If you can do this then you should have pretty > good torso rotation working for you. This is a really good teaching technique, and is exactly what I teach to my students. > The problem is that I find that quite a large number of people are unable > to paddle with their elbows locked. They just can't do it! I guess it's sort > of like rubbing your stomach with one hand while patting your head with the > other. I've encountered some people with this problem. But I have always been able to get them to figure it out with enough "positive" feedback. > Not everyone is able to easily accomplish this. So another technique > you might try is to sit comfortably in your boat with your back more or less > straight. Hold your paddle comfortably out in front of you at about chest > height or slightly below, elbows slightly bent. Now slowly, and gently. twist > your torso with your paddle from one side to the other. Imagine you are > simply limbering up your torso with this twisting exercise. Once you have > twisted a number of times from one side to the other in the air, keep slowly > twisting, but drop one end after the other of your paddle into the water as > you do. So called "air paddling" is an excellent teaching tool, and is the exact same next step that I use to teach torso rotation if locked-arms trick doesn't work. Good going, Scott! Kevin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Thu, 24 May 2001 KiAyker_at_aol.com wrote: > > Just how much torso rotation is normal? > > Paddling with straight arms, as already mentioned, is probably the best > way to accomplish what you are trying to figure out.... > The problem is that I find that quite a large number of people are unable > to paddle with their elbows locked. They just can't do it! I guess it's sort > of like rubbing your stomach with one hand while patting your head This sounds like a job for PowerCuffs(TM)! Normally a pair of PowerCuffs retails for $39.95 (Cdn$62.50), but since we're all friends, I'll violate the exclusive patent and tell you how they're made. Drink 2 half gallon paper cartons of orange juice. Grapefruit is OK, too. Tear the top completely open and cut off the bottom, yielding a rectangular tube. Apply to each arm, centering the tube on the elbow. Go paddle. You _will_ use torso rotation, or you won't get anywhere. PowerCuffs(TM) were invented by Roger Schumann of Eskape Sea Kayaks in Santa Clara. He uses them to good effect in his instruction. I do, too. Steve Cramer *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
The following reply is from Roger Schumann who asked me to send this in for him. (I believe he is currently experiencing some Paddlewise technical difficulty.) Steve Cramer wrote: > PowerCuffs(TM) were invented by Roger Schumann of Eskape Sea Kayaking. > He uses them to good effect in his instruction. I do, too. Steve, et. al. Thanks for the plug, but I didn't really invent the PowerCuffs. We actually call them PowerBoxes, and we've only used 1/2 gallon milk cartons (2% low fat, not OJ or grapefruit as you suggest) so I can't attest to how well the juice boxes would work. To make them more sturdy and prevent tearing by persistent elbow benders, we wrap the boxes in duct tape for a long-lasting teaching tool. Roger *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 08:09 PM 5/24/01 -0400, KiAyker_at_aol.com wrote: > > Just how much torso rotation is normal? > > Paddling with straight arms, as already mentioned, is probably the best >way to accomplish what you are trying to figure out. The technique is simple, >just lock your elbows and paddle. The only way you can paddle the boat with >your arms locked is by using torso rotation. Once you get the hang of it, >bend your elbows just enough to feel comfortable and continue paddling as you >did with your elbows locked. If you can do this then you should have pretty >good torso rotation working for you. > The problem is that I find that quite a large number of people are unable >to paddle with their elbows locked. They just can't do it! I guess it's sort >of like rubbing your stomach with one hand while patting your head with the >other. Not everyone is able to easily accomplish this. So another technique >you might try is to sit comfortably in your boat with your back more or less >straight. Hold your paddle comfortably out in front of you at about chest >height or slightly below, elbows slightly bent. Now slowly, and gently. twist >your torso with your paddle from one side to the other. Imagine you are >simply limbering up your torso with this twisting exercise. Actually, this is a good limbering up exercise before getting into the boat. Start by standing with your feet facing the same direction and a comfortable distance apart, hold the paddle out in front such that it's horizontal, parallel with your chest, and the elbows slightly bent. Now twist slowly until the paddle is perpendicular (but still horizontal) to it's initial state and try to keep the paddle shaft parallel with your chest. Do it on both sides and then get in the kayak and sit with an upright posture and perform the exercise there. Stop and hold the paddle position where it's parallel to the side of the boat and remember that position. Now paddle forward and try to keep up the torso rotation. About every third or fourth stroke, stop paddling such that you're in that position with the paddle parallel to the side. After awhile the torso rotation will feel much more natural. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 5/24/01 11:47:39 AM, jtibensky_at_msn.com writes: << Lock your elbows, as Gabriel suggested, swing at the waist, as Joe suggested, keep the paddle low, and push forcefully with right foot and leg on the right side stroke, left leg on left stroke. Close your eyes and pay attention to what you are feeling. The goal is to feel these same trunk muscles working in your normal stroke. >> Hi Jim, Back again to differ, just a bit. For a change I read the entire thread before answering. For 2 seasons I used this waist rotation and found it took a lot of effort and I had to consciously do it. A couple of weeks ago we had a Greenland paddling class and Greg said something about paddling from your hips/seat. (Yes, I'm back to the horse thing but it works.) All the side and back muscles come into play if you use your whole torso and not just from the waist up. Now, I can really keep a pace going almost indefinitely, compared to what I was doing. I don't have to give it a thought. It is really co mfortable, the peddling is just part of the stroke and my only thought comes into the areas of push vs. pull. I still have some questions about that but at the rate things are progressing. Any reason this shouldn't be the approach? Joan Spinner *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Absolutely Z-E-R-O offence taken. <grin> Although I am tempted to reply with a...'But it feels so good' <grin> What is a back band supposed to do? Does it slide from side to side, enhancing the rotation? Are they free on the support belt so that they slide or what is they difference between a back band and a rigid support. I have build my own kayak and for the moment am using the back of the coaming as the back rest. Not that comfortable, but not that bad. It certainly wasn't my idea of the finial solution, but figured I would start paddling and work on 'fitting' as I went. Marvin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Whilden" <kevin_at_yourplanetearth.org> To: <KiAyker_at_aol.com>; <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net>; <skylakeboatworks_at_yahoo.com> Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 8:10 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Torso rotation > Marvin, > > You're about to get my professional opinion, so try not to get offended. > Remember, you asked for it... > > The preferred technique you described, leaning back and paddling with your > arms, is a L-A-Z-Y way to kayak. :) Fine if you only want to toodle around > on a flat lake for 30 minutes, but totally worthless on a long trip or in > windy conditions. You mentioned feeling awkward rotating your torso -- this > is a normal feeling. After 30 minutes, it will stop feeling awkward and > you'll be used to it henceforth. The reason it feels awkward is twofold. > One, because we humans rarely engage in such active torso rotation in normal > life. Two, because nearly every skill in kayaking is counter-intuitive. If > it feels wrong, there's a good chance that it is actually right. Chew on > that for a bit... > > One other possibility why leaning back feels good is that you have bad back > support. You may consider installing a good back band. Rigid seat backs are > not so great. > > Many people have given you good advice for activating your torso during the > stroke. But it sounded to me like you were able to do it, but just didn't > like it. Nevertheless, torso rotation is such a fundamental skill, that I > also cannot resist commenting on how to do it. But I'll restrict my comments > to a couple of observations on what Scott said below: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <KiAyker_at_aol.com> > To: <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net> > Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 5:09 PM > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Torso rotation > > > > > Just how much torso rotation is normal? > > > > Paddling with straight arms, as already mentioned, is probably the best > > way to accomplish what you are trying to figure out. The technique is > simple, > > just lock your elbows and paddle. The only way you can paddle the boat > with > > your arms locked is by using torso rotation. Once you get the hang of it, > > bend your elbows just enough to feel comfortable and continue paddling as > you > > did with your elbows locked. If you can do this then you should have > pretty > > good torso rotation working for you. > > This is a really good teaching technique, and is exactly what I teach to my > students. > > > The problem is that I find that quite a large number of people are > unable > > to paddle with their elbows locked. They just can't do it! I guess it's > sort > > of like rubbing your stomach with one hand while patting your head with > the > > other. > > I've encountered some people with this problem. But I have always been able > to get them to figure it out with enough "positive" feedback. > > > > Not everyone is able to easily accomplish this. So another technique > > you might try is to sit comfortably in your boat with your back more or > less > > straight. Hold your paddle comfortably out in front of you at about chest > > height or slightly below, elbows slightly bent. Now slowly, and gently. > twist > > your torso with your paddle from one side to the other. Imagine you are > > simply limbering up your torso with this twisting exercise. Once you have > > twisted a number of times from one side to the other in the air, keep > slowly > > twisting, but drop one end after the other of your paddle into the water > as > > you do. > > So called "air paddling" is an excellent teaching tool, and is the exact > same next step that I use to teach torso rotation if locked-arms trick > doesn't work. Good going, Scott! > > Kevin > > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I understand the idea of 'previously unused muscles. After the first ride on my road bike with toe clips, I over did it. For the next day I had to back down the stairs. If I walked down forward, my legs would spasm and collapse under me. I will definitely work on the straight arm thing. Marvin > When I consciously began that rotation around the hips, then all those > muscles came into play. To me, actually, that was more "natural". I > suspect that you also are moving your arms to get the stroke distance you > desire. Try not to do that, holding the paddle in a mostly fixed position > and concentrate initially on starting that rotation at your hips. For me, > that pfd zipper seems to go about from 10 to 2 O'clock, more or less. When > I'm stroking into a turn, it's really only to 9:30 or 2:30. Don't seem to > need much more than that. > Does that seem uncomfortable at firs?. Certainly. But with practice it > will become natural. I was on the Fencing team in college long ago. When I > started I discovered muscles in my thighs I never knew existed and they > complained mightily. But it was necessary to get them used to this new > stress in order to accomplish what I needed to do. It didn't take that > long, and then I was able to go on with what I really needed to do. > > Joe P. > > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed > here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire > responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. > Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net > Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 5/24/01 9:15:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kevin_at_yourplanetearth.org writes: > So called "air paddling" is an excellent teaching tool, and is the exact > same next step that I use to teach torso rotation if locked-arms trick > doesn't work. Good going, Scott! Jim Tibensky also described "air paddling" yesterday. I've been doing this in the mornings in front of the bath room mirror for years ... waiting for the shower water to get hot, which usually takes a minute or two. I start slow, relaxed and mindful of form and get more energetic as I wake up. I remember well the drastic positive (!) effect this had on my paddling after it became a habit. I had the pleasure of watching a strong storm paddler the other day. In chop and somewhat of a breeze he leaned forward a long way, twisted his torso as if he was trying to escape an embrace and hauled back with his whole upper body. All that with a grin of pure enjoyment permanently etched on his face and with a peculiar rythm that I have yet to figure out. His form is clearly made possible by his great flexibility and the condition of his abdominal muscles. He "admits" to putting in time stretching! (Often forgotten it appears.) Best regards, Ralph Ralph C. Hoehn Ralph_at_PouchBoats.com www.PouchBoats.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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