It strikes me that what you folks have been complaining about would go away with a proper "native" style paddle (and the proper technique to use it). You modern "Euro" style paddlers are the heretics: thousands of years by the real experts, the ones who required performance as a matter of survival, have proven that the short, thin bladed paddles are superior for long distance sea kayaking. I commend everyone to make, borrow or buy a properly designed Aleut or Greenland style paddle and go learn how to use it. They are superior in every way: easier to roll, easier to store, more efficient to paddle, less strain on your joints, lower "swing" weight, less effect in the wind, etc. etc. These types of paddles tend to be shorter, usually in the 200 to 210 cm length, depending on paddler size (note however that native kayaks tend to be in the 18 to 22 inch width range, much narrower than typical commercial kayaks). Two words of warning, you must use proper technique with this paddle. If you attempt to use the poor technique that the "Euro" style paddles require you will be disappointed. Proper native technique is not difficult, just different, in fact most find it much more 'natural'- you know you are doing correctly when it 'feels' right. That is smooth, quiet, and totally natural body movements with much less effort for the same amount of forward speed. The other warning is that most of the commercially available "native" paddles are not native designs at all, but rather an incompetent schizoid mixture of "native" and modern features, including all the plastic or fiberglass ones. Unfortunately the firms that make them either do not realize this and are influenced by the modern designs, or are simply trying to market something that does not look too different from the "Euro" style so it will sell. But I have read that none of these "bastardized" designs work as well with native techniques as the true native designs. There are numerous locations on the internet with free plans and detailed descriptions on making your own native paddle. All it takes is a reasonably clear 2x4 of some light weight wood (red cedar, spruce, etc.) and a few simple wood working tools. I am no expert, but after making and using a "native" paddle, I will not tolerate the poor feel and performance of a modern design any more. Peter Chopelas PS: The idea of "slippage" in a paddle as it move thorough the water is a totally incorrect understanding of fluid mechanics (of which I am an expert in). Only an ignoramus idiot would use such terminology: when "pushing" against a fluid you have to have the fluid moving (or accelerating) in order to get any force out of it--this is how airplanes, pumps, propeller, paddles, fans and all other "fluid" machinery works. You can not have a paddle without "slippage", or you would get no forward motion!! You CAN NOT compare fluid mechanics to pushing against solid objects, the forces involved are totally different. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
A suggestion for those following Kevin's advice (below). Make your paddle, but don't apply any finish, and carve the minimum paddle shaft (or "loom") length you think you'll need. Try it out. If it's too short, take some wood off and repeat as necessary. Tom Joyce <snip> According to George, the best way to determine proper paddle shaft length is trial and error. Try several different paddle shaft lengths, and determine which one gives you just enough clearance over your deck. Once clearance is achieved, any extra length is only a disadvantage because of the slower stroke cadence (and other reasons). ------------------------------------------ The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged, confidential, and protected from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, any further disclosure or use, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message or any attachment is strictly prohibited. If you think that you have received this e-mail message in error, please delete it and notify the sender. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Maybe I'm missing something with my silly examples, but here goes again. Sit alongside the water, not in a boat but on solid ground, and make a paddling motion with a toothpick. The toothpick slips easily through the water with no noticeable resistance. Try it with a popsicle stick. Then a ping pong paddle. Then an Inuit style blade. They all slip through the water, as will whatever paddle you're using. The bigger the surface area of the "blade" [I sholdn't call a toothpick a blade], the less slip and the more resistance. But they all slip, for Pete's sake. If a blade didn't slip in the water when paddling a kayak, there wouldn't be any cavitation, would there?? And there would be no need to dig deep. And we would go just as fast in concrete as we do in H2O. I think. Jim Tibensky _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
This thread has finally lead me to attempt some very simplified calculations: These calculations are made assuming that for both the boat and paddle, force is proportional to the square of the velocity through the water (Fp=A*Vp^2 and Fb=B*Vb^2 ) and also assuming that we can learn something from calculations involving the very great simplification that the velocity (and resistance force) of the boat and paddle remain constant. This last is impossible, since it would involve having no time between strokes, but here are the results for what they are worth. If people are interested in the derivation of the equations, I can supply them. First, if X is the length of the stroke and Y is the distance the paddle slips through the water during a single stroke, Y=X(sqrt(B)/(sqrt(B)+sqrt(A)). That is, for a given stroke length the slippage depends only on the resistance coefficients of the paddle and the boat, so of course, James is right. No matter how fast you paddle, for a given boat/paddle combination (neglecting boat acceleration) the distance the paddle slips through the water with each stroke remains the same. This leads to a simple efficiency calculation, using Power out/ Power in as the definition of efficiency and the constants defined above for boat and paddle resistance: Efficiency = sqrt(A)/(sqrt(A)+sqrt(B)) It would be interesting to have some ballpark numbers for A and B. From the equations, the efficiency is only slightly greater than 80% when the paddle coefficient A is 20 times greater than the boat coefficient B. The efficiency increases pretty slowly with increased paddle resistance after that. To get 10% slippage, A/B=80. Note that for the 80% paddle/boat combination described above, the paddle would slip through the water about 20% of the stroke length. How reasonable are the equations? I really don't know. I think there was a post that gave some resistance figures for paddles, but I have deleted it. I looked at one set of resistance curves in Sea Kayaker Mag and for those curves at speeds less than 4-4.5 kn the resistance coefficient was fairly constant and close to .22 lb/kn, giving a resistance force of about 5.2 lb at 4.5 kn. That means that for our 80+% paddle A = 4.4 lb/kn, the velocity of the paddle relative to the water would be 1 kn and it's velocity relative to the boat would be about 5.5 kn. Since in reality the a paddle is on the water only part of the time, either the paddle velocity through the water or A would have to increase. Anyway, the relatively small effect of increased area (resistance coefficient) of the paddle after a certain point was consistent with my experience switching from a big Harmony paddle to a smaller Kawai. If anyone knows some reasonable figures for paddle resistance coefficients, it would be interesting to see what kind of efficiencies can be expected. Regards, Dave Carlson James Tibensky wrote: > Maybe I'm missing something with my silly examples, but here goes again. > > Sit alongside the water, not in a boat but on solid ground, and make a > paddling motion with a toothpick. The toothpick slips easily through the > water with no noticeable resistance. Try it with a popsicle stick. Then a > ping pong paddle. Then an Inuit style blade. They all slip through the > water, as will whatever paddle you're using. The bigger the surface area of > the "blade" [I sholdn't call a toothpick a blade], the less slip and the > more resistance. But they all slip, for Pete's sake. If a blade didn't > slip in the water when paddling a kayak, there wouldn't be any cavitation, > would there?? And there would be no need to dig deep. > > And we would go just as fast in concrete as we do in H2O. > > I think. > > Jim Tibensky > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed > here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire > responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. > Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net > Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 4:31 PM -0500 5/11/01, James Tibensky wrote: >If a blade didn't slip in the water when paddling a kayak, there >wouldn't be any cavitation, would there?? And there would be no >need to dig deep. You mean "ventilation" not "cavitation". Cavitation is when an object is moving so fast through the water that the water can not move around it fast enough so a bubble of vacuum is produced on the trailing edge. This vacuum will eventually eat away at the object. Ventilation seems similar, but it is a result of air being sucked down from the surface, where cavitation happens without contact with the surface. Ventilation can be reduced or eliminated by completely submerging the blade because the round shape of the shaft does not produce a good path for air to travel down to the blade. -- Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 (860) 659-8847 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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