PaddleWise by thread

From: Peter A. Chopelas <pac_at_premier1.net>
subject: [Paddlewise] paddle sizing heresy
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 11:16:05 -0700
It strikes me that what you folks have been complaining about would go away 
with a proper "native" style paddle (and the proper technique to use it).

You modern "Euro" style paddlers are the heretics:  thousands of years by 
the real experts, the ones who required performance as a matter of 
survival, have proven that the short, thin bladed paddles are superior for 
long distance sea kayaking.

I commend everyone to make, borrow or buy a properly designed Aleut or 
Greenland style paddle and go learn how to use it.  They are superior in 
every way: easier to roll, easier to store, more efficient to paddle, less 
strain on your joints, lower "swing" weight, less effect in the wind, etc. 
etc.

These types of paddles tend to be shorter, usually in the 200 to 210 cm 
length, depending on paddler size (note however that native kayaks tend to 
be in the 18 to 22 inch width range, much narrower than typical commercial 
kayaks).

Two words of warning, you must use proper technique with this paddle.  If 
you attempt to use the poor technique that the "Euro" style paddles require 
you will be disappointed.  Proper native technique is not difficult, just 
different, in fact most find it much more 'natural'- you know you are doing 
correctly when it 'feels' right.  That is smooth, quiet, and totally 
natural body movements with much less effort for the same amount of forward 
speed.

The other warning is that most of the commercially available "native" 
paddles are not native designs at all, but rather an incompetent schizoid 
mixture of "native" and modern features, including all the plastic or 
fiberglass ones.  Unfortunately the firms that make them either do not 
realize this and are influenced by the modern designs, or are simply trying 
to market something that does not look too different from the "Euro" style 
so it will sell.  But I have read that none of these "bastardized" designs 
work as well with native techniques as the true native designs.

There are numerous locations on the internet with free plans and detailed 
descriptions on making your own native paddle.  All it takes is a 
reasonably clear 2x4 of some light weight wood (red cedar, spruce, etc.) 
and a few simple wood working tools.

I am no expert, but after making and using a "native" paddle, I will not 
tolerate the poor feel and performance of a modern design any more.

Peter Chopelas

PS:  The idea of "slippage" in a paddle as it move thorough the water is a 
totally incorrect understanding of fluid mechanics (of which I am an expert 
in).  Only an ignoramus idiot would use such terminology: when "pushing" 
against a fluid you have to have the fluid moving (or accelerating) in 
order to get any force out of it--this is how airplanes, pumps, propeller, 
paddles, fans and all other "fluid" machinery works.  You can not have a 
paddle without "slippage", or you would get no forward motion!!  You CAN 
NOT compare fluid mechanics to pushing against solid objects, the forces 
involved are totally different.
***************************************************************************
PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed
here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire
responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author.
Submissions:     PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net
Subscriptions:   PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net
Website:         http://www.paddlewise.net/
***************************************************************************
From: Joyce, Thomas F. <TJoyce_at_bellboyd.com>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] paddle sizing heresy
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 09:54:27 -0500
A suggestion for those following Kevin's advice (below).  Make your paddle,
but don't apply any finish, and carve the minimum paddle shaft (or "loom")
length you think you'll need.  Try it out.  If it's too short, take some
wood off and repeat as necessary.  

Tom Joyce

<snip>

According to George, the best way to determine proper paddle shaft length is
trial and error. Try several different paddle shaft lengths, and determine
which one gives you just enough clearance over your deck. Once clearance is
achieved, any extra length is only a disadvantage because of the slower
stroke cadence (and other reasons).

------------------------------------------
The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged, 
confidential, and protected from disclosure.  If you are not the
intended recipient, any further disclosure or use, dissemination,
distribution, or copying of this message or any attachment is strictly
prohibited.  If you think that you have received this e-mail message in
error, please delete it and notify the sender.


***************************************************************************
PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed
here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire
responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author.
Submissions:     PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net
Subscriptions:   PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net
Website:         http://www.paddlewise.net/
***************************************************************************
From: James Tibensky <jtibensky_at_msn.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] paddle sizing heresy
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 16:31:31 -0500
Maybe I'm missing something with my silly examples, but here goes again.

Sit alongside the water, not in a boat but on solid ground, and make a 
paddling motion with a toothpick. The toothpick slips easily through the 
water with no noticeable resistance.  Try it with a popsicle stick.  Then a 
ping pong paddle.  Then an Inuit style blade.  They all slip through the 
water, as will whatever paddle you're using.  The bigger the surface area of 
the "blade" [I sholdn't call a toothpick a blade], the less slip and the 
more resistance.  But they all slip, for Pete's sake.  If a blade didn't 
slip in the water when paddling a kayak, there wouldn't be any cavitation, 
would there??  And there would be no need to dig deep.

And we would go just as fast in concrete as we do in H2O.

I think.


Jim Tibensky

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

***************************************************************************
PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed
here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire
responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author.
Submissions:     PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net
Subscriptions:   PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net
Website:         http://www.paddlewise.net/
***************************************************************************
From: David Carlson <qajaq_at_nwlink.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] paddle sizing heresy
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 17:11:50 -0700
This thread has finally lead me to attempt some very simplified calculations:

These calculations are made assuming that for both the boat and paddle, force is
proportional to the square of the velocity through the water (Fp=A*Vp^2 and
Fb=B*Vb^2 ) and also assuming that we can learn something from calculations
involving the very great simplification that the velocity (and resistance force)
of the boat and paddle remain constant.  This last is impossible, since it would
involve having no time between strokes, but here are the results for what they
are worth.  If people are interested in the derivation of the equations, I can
supply them.

First, if X is the length of the stroke and Y is the distance the paddle slips
through the water during a single stroke, Y=X(sqrt(B)/(sqrt(B)+sqrt(A)).  That
is, for a given stroke length the slippage depends only on the resistance
coefficients of the paddle and the boat, so of course, James is right.  No
matter how fast you paddle, for a given boat/paddle combination (neglecting boat
acceleration) the distance the paddle slips through the water with each stroke
remains the same.

This leads to a simple efficiency calculation, using Power out/ Power in as the
definition of efficiency and the constants defined above for boat and paddle
resistance:

    Efficiency = sqrt(A)/(sqrt(A)+sqrt(B))

It would be interesting to have some ballpark numbers for A and B.  From the
equations, the efficiency is only slightly greater than 80% when the paddle
coefficient A is 20 times greater than the boat coefficient B.  The efficiency
increases pretty slowly with increased paddle resistance after that.  To get 10%
slippage, A/B=80.

Note that for the 80% paddle/boat combination described above, the paddle would
slip through the water about 20% of the stroke length.

How reasonable are the equations?  I really don't know.  I think there was a
post that gave some resistance figures for paddles, but I have deleted it.  I
looked at one set of resistance curves in Sea Kayaker Mag and for those curves
at speeds less than 4-4.5 kn the resistance coefficient was fairly constant and
close to .22 lb/kn, giving a resistance force of about 5.2 lb at 4.5 kn.  That
means that for our 80+% paddle A = 4.4 lb/kn, the velocity of the paddle
relative to the water would be 1 kn and it's velocity relative to the boat would
be about 5.5 kn.  Since in reality the a paddle is on the water only part of the
time, either the paddle velocity through the water or A would have to increase.

Anyway, the relatively small effect of increased area (resistance coefficient)
of the paddle after a certain point was consistent with my experience switching
from a big Harmony paddle to a smaller Kawai.  If anyone knows some reasonable
figures for paddle resistance coefficients, it would be interesting to see what
kind of efficiencies can be expected.

Regards,

Dave Carlson

James Tibensky wrote:

> Maybe I'm missing something with my silly examples, but here goes again.
>
> Sit alongside the water, not in a boat but on solid ground, and make a
> paddling motion with a toothpick. The toothpick slips easily through the
> water with no noticeable resistance.  Try it with a popsicle stick.  Then a
> ping pong paddle.  Then an Inuit style blade.  They all slip through the
> water, as will whatever paddle you're using.  The bigger the surface area of
> the "blade" [I sholdn't call a toothpick a blade], the less slip and the
> more resistance.  But they all slip, for Pete's sake.  If a blade didn't
> slip in the water when paddling a kayak, there wouldn't be any cavitation,
> would there??  And there would be no need to dig deep.
>
> And we would go just as fast in concrete as we do in H2O.
>
> I think.
>
> Jim Tibensky
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
> ***************************************************************************
> PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed
> here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire
> responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author.
> Submissions:     PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net
> Subscriptions:   PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net
> Website:         http://www.paddlewise.net/
> ***************************************************************************

***************************************************************************
PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed
here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire
responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author.
Submissions:     PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net
Subscriptions:   PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net
Website:         http://www.paddlewise.net/
***************************************************************************
From: Nick Schade <schade_at_guillemot-kayaks.com>
subject: [Paddlewise] Cavitation vs Ventilation
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 09:08:53 -0400
At 4:31 PM -0500 5/11/01, James Tibensky wrote:
>If a blade didn't slip in the water when paddling a kayak, there 
>wouldn't be any cavitation, would there??  And there would be no 
>need to dig deep.

You mean "ventilation" not "cavitation". Cavitation is when an object 
is moving so fast through the water that the water can not move 
around it fast enough so a bubble of vacuum is produced on the 
trailing edge. This vacuum will eventually eat away at the object.

Ventilation seems similar, but it is a result of air being sucked 
down from the surface, where cavitation happens without contact with 
the surface. Ventilation can be reduced or eliminated by completely 
submerging the blade because the round shape of the shaft does not 
produce a good path for air to travel down to the blade.
-- 
Nick Schade
Guillemot Kayaks
824 Thompson St
Glastonbury, CT 06033
(860) 659-8847
***************************************************************************
PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed
here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire
responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author.
Submissions:     PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net
Subscriptions:   PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net
Website:         http://www.paddlewise.net/
***************************************************************************

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.4.0 : Thu Aug 21 2025 - 16:33:22 PDT