hi all, ok, to "edge" in (ha ha) on the rudder/rudderless debate, i'll ask you experienced paddlers a "how-to" question. the hubster and i have faced 1--3 foot wind waves with the wind at our back a few times and been somewhat dismayed, or at least a little surprised (translation: "only been kayaking 18 mos.") at how our relatively beamy, flat-bottomed boats weathercocked.... or at least were pushed around. we've kept trying to do small corrections and edge to keep the wind at our backs, and garner whatever momentum we could off the wavelet crests.... but how, officially, DO you do this? the last time, we only had to go 4 miles or so, but it was a longish 4 miles. we both paddle perception plastic boats. (carolina) most of the paddling we do isn't in any rougher conditions than this, except ferrying into the current and going down Class 1.5 rapids in the course of a calm-water river day, so we still don't want rudders. i'm just asking, with our current setup, how do we paddle intelligently and efficiently, technically speaking? thank you, kcd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
timbre_at_spiger.com wrote: > > hi all, > > ok, to "edge" in (ha ha) on the rudder/rudderless debate, i'll ask you > experienced paddlers a "how-to" question. the hubster and i have faced > 1--3 foot wind waves with the wind at our back a few times and been > somewhat dismayed, or at least a little surprised (translation: "only been > kayaking 18 mos.") at how our relatively beamy, flat-bottomed boats > weathercocked.... or at least were pushed around. we've kept trying to do > small corrections and edge to keep the wind at our backs, and garner > whatever momentum we could off the wavelet crests.... but how, officially, > DO you do this? the last time, we only had to go 4 miles or so, but it was > a longish 4 miles. we both paddle perception plastic boats. (carolina) Kathleen, in those boats, I suspect edging will not do much for you. The flat, beamy bottoms make achieving the edge difficult without a lot of lean, and then you will probably be past the "comfort zone" for you in that boat. To track smartly _downwind_ without weathercocking, consider use of stern rudder: paddle held to the rear, blade vertical, and wedge the boat in the direction you want to go. (There are more elegant and efficient ways to get the boat back on track, but this is a good (though sloppy) first choice.) Beware: it is very easy to get the paddle trapped back there so you have to wedge the "wrong" way to get it back out. To avoid that, keep the shaft a couple inches out from the side, so you can rotate the shaft and withdraw it with out wedging either left or right. You might consider a little practice in _very small_ surf on a safe beach to refine your technique before you depend on your skills to handle a long downwind crossing. Good luck, and thanks for asking. I bet your request will generate a lot of debate! -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
kcd said: hi all, ok, to "edge" in (ha ha) on the rudder/rudderless debate, i'll ask you experienced paddlers a "how-to" question. etc... I say: I'm sure you'll get this answer from a lot of people, but I'll go ahead anyway. Beamy boats are impossible to edge. The very thing that makes you stable in dead water, the wide and flat bottom, gives you no ability to tilt the boat on edge. True responsiveness only comes with a sportier boat. Picture the wide, flat bottom on the water with the surface of the water flat to the horizon. Now tilt that water 45 degrees, as on a wave. The flat bottom is now tipped 45 degrees as well and nothing you do will change that. The wide bottom does what the water does, it cannot do otherwise. When the wave curls past 180 degrees, your face is in the water. If you have a rounder, narrower hull, your hips will tilt to compensate and you will be breathing air instead of water. As your skills increase, as they will as you practice [you WILL practice, won't you?], you will graduate to a more responsive boat. And some day you'll be amazed you ever liked that friendly-in-flat-water-only Queen Mary hull. I hope! Jim Tibensky _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 03:10 PM 9/26/01 -0500, James Tibensky wrote: >kcd said: > >hi all, > >ok, to "edge" in (ha ha) on the rudder/rudderless debate, i'll ask you >experienced paddlers a "how-to" question. etc... > >I say: > >I'm sure you'll get this answer from a lot of people, but I'll go ahead >anyway. Beamy boats are impossible to edge. The very thing that makes you >stable in dead water, the wide and flat bottom, gives you no ability to tilt >the boat on edge. True responsiveness only comes with a sportier boat. > >Picture the wide, flat bottom on the water with the surface of the water >flat to the horizon. Now tilt that water 45 degrees, as on a wave. The >flat bottom is now tipped 45 degrees as well and nothing you do will change >that. The wide bottom does what the water does, it cannot do otherwise. >When the wave curls past 180 degrees, your face is in the water. If you >have a rounder, narrower hull, your hips will tilt to compensate and you >will be breathing air instead of water. > >As your skills increase, as they will as you practice [you WILL practice, >won't you?], you will graduate to a more responsive boat. And some day >you'll be amazed you ever liked that friendly-in-flat-water-only Queen Mary >hull. I more or less agree with the second paragraph, but, come on, some of your statements are a bit absolute. "Beamy boats are impossible to edge. " " The flat bottom is now tipped 45 degrees as well and nothing you do will change that." Have you ever paddled a Carolina? I have and, while it doesn't have the secondary stability of a my hard chined Northbay, nor is as sporty as a 17'6" long, 22" wide boat, it's not exactly like paddling a john boat either. I certainly wouldn't categorize a Carolina as "sporty" but it definitely can be edged and responds fairly well to a stern rudder. A few weeks ago I took out a boat that makes the Carolina feel like a Looksha II. The Prijon Capria is 2 1/2 feet shorter and 3 1/2" wider, and not only could it be edged fairly easily, it wasn't difficult to roll either. So take heart, timbre, your Carolina's can handle those following waves with a bit of practice. As Dave Kruger suggested, a stern rudder will allow you to steer your boat and start surfing some of those following waves. You can practice the stern rudder stroke on flat water as well. Just start paddling forward, set your paddle so that it is parallel with the hull with the blade toward the stern vertical and then try turning the boat in both directions by slightly changing the angle of the blade. Practice on both sides until you can turn the boat in either direction from both sides. The primary drawback of the Carolina is that you often won't have enough boat speed to catch some of the waves. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I would guess that you are probably getting pushed around by the waves more than you are weather cocking, because the weather cocking forces are too minimal when running straight downwind. But here's a couple of ways to minimize weather cocking anyway. If you are paddling loaded boats, be sure to put more heavy stuff in the stern just behind your seat. You might also try leaning back some, which can significantly reduce weather helm in some boats. But this is uncomfortable long term. If the seat is adjustable, you might try moving it back a notch. Also, make sure that you have very little stuff piled up on the rear decks, as the windage from deck bags can exacerbate the problem. However, what is most likely happening is that your boats are doing mini-broaches on the waves. The best thing you can do in this situation is learn how to surf the waves! Surfing waves in a kayak is the most noble of all endeavors. But to surf the waves, you'll need the following: 1. Good edge control. This starts with good outfitting. perception is pretty lax with regard to putting in thigh braces on their plastic sea kayaks. Find a place that sells perception kayaks and have them order some of their whitewather thigh braces. They should fit without a hassle. Spend some time making your boat fit snug but not constricting. This is the most important and most overlooked thing in sea kayaking. Every other skill in kayaking will improve with good edge control. And btw, your boats will edge just fine once the outfitting is good. 2. Learn how to rudder as Dave Kruger and others suggest. Very good at correcting a broach as it gets out of control. Make certain you know the difference between a braking rudder and a clean rudder. 3. Timing. To catch a wave, paddle forward normally. Try to get a feeling for how the waves speed you up and slow you down as they pass beneath. You want to turn on the jets just before the speeding up phase occurs. Once you have caught the wave, lean back slightly and get ready to put in a rudder to prevent a broach. At first, ruddering will be ugly and broaching will be frequent. But eventually, you will be able to anticipate a broach early enough that the rudder will only have to be minimal and graceful. This is how you achieve surfing zen. 4. Coordinate rudder and edge control. Sometimes the broach is just impossible to prevent, because sea kayaks are so long. However it is possible to use advanced technique to correct a determined broach and continue with the surf. With my hard chined Pygmy Arctic Tern, I can do this edging into the wave face and simultaneously placing a strong and clean rudder on the down wave side. This kind of contortion is very difficult for most people and feels awkward or has very little power on the rudder. However it is a fairly basic skill for whitewater kayakers who like to surf river waves. What surprised me was how well it worked with my sea kayak on about four foot wind waves. The flat bottom and hard chines definitely help in this respect. Round bottom boats are almost impossible to correct in a broach without also capsizing. Flat bottom boats are simply much better for surfing. 5. Don't be afraid to look behind you and paddle in the direction of the steepest waves. :) I hope you're not shaking your head and saying, "surfing? you've got to be kidding". It's a lot of fun, and really not so inaccessible as some might think. Cheers, Kevin ----- Original Message ----- From: <timbre_at_spiger.com> To: <PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net> Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 12:22 PM Subject: [Paddlewise] how do you do that, rudderless? > hi all, > > ok, to "edge" in (ha ha) on the rudder/rudderless debate, i'll ask you > experienced paddlers a "how-to" question. the hubster and i have faced > 1--3 foot wind waves with the wind at our back a few times and been > somewhat dismayed, or at least a little surprised (translation: "only been > kayaking 18 mos.") at how our relatively beamy, flat-bottomed boats > weathercocked.... or at least were pushed around. we've kept trying to do > small corrections and edge to keep the wind at our backs, and garner > whatever momentum we could off the wavelet crests.... but how, officially, > DO you do this? the last time, we only had to go 4 miles or so, but it was > a longish 4 miles. we both paddle perception plastic boats. (carolina) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I'm with James on this. By my measurements the Carolina is 29.5" wide. It is not a kayak that is easy to lean even for a 190 pound guy like me. No way it is going to lean easily to correct a broach. Even if it could lean easily that lean most likely wouldn't be very effective. The flat bottom and rounded chines won't grip the water at the stern much to slow the broach down even if you can lean it. A narrower version of the same hull would be easier to lean to turn and that would allow an expert paddler to keep the nose pointed down wave easier but once into the broach the stern will still slide quickly around sideways without something to snag the water to slow down the effects of gravity and an inclined plane (the wave face) that is causing the broach. Things that might help snag the water to hinder sideways motion might include: a very long rudder, an under hull skeg, lots of V in the stern quarter, a keel or multiple keels (or maybe a fin or fins--like a surfboard) in the stern quarter, or hard chines in the stern quarter) The Carolina is probably an ideal kayak for laying back and spending a pleasant afternoon fishing in a small lake without having the slightest need to pay attention to stability while doing so. No matter how skilled you get at surfing it is probably still going to be a real handful to control once you've caught a wave. Going down wind it will probably be better to slow down and try to avoid catching the waves and use a lot of stern rudder strokes if you inadvertently do catch one. The wind will still blow you in the direction you are wanting to go and if you were really in a hurry you probably would have bought longer narrower kayaks in the first place. John Fereira wrote: >>>>>>>>>.A few weeks ago I took out a boat that makes the Carolina feel like a Looksha II. The Prijon Capria is 2 1/2 feet shorter and 3 1/2" wider, and not only could it be edged fairly easily, it wasn't difficult to roll either. The Prijon Capri (12' by 27") is 2.5 feet shorter (and that in itself would make it lean easier) but my measurements say it is also 2.5" narrower than the Carolina (and that would make it lean a whole lot easier to lean than the Carolina) not 3.5" wider. Are we talking about the same kayaks here? The Capri also looks to be much finer ended than the Carolina (and that would also make it tippier, other things being equal). John, are you sure that you are not talking about the Perception Corona or some other Perception model here. I realize that several sources list the Carolina at 25.25" wide and the 2001 Canoe Buyer's Guide even says it is only 24.5" wide but my calipers and tape measure said 29.5" on the one (Carolina Expedition) that I measured in Sept. 1998. I could be in error, perhaps kcd could measure her Carolina's width and report back to us on it. My favorite stroke for surfing on wind waves is the forward stroke with a stern draw component at the end of it (when needed). With that combination I can both keep my speed up to stay on the wave face and also pull the stern up the wave a bit when it wants to start slipping down it. If that's not enough to control the broach I'll revert to a very quick and powerful vertical (clean) stern rudder pry-like stroke (down wave) and then quickly get back into the forward stroke and stern draw mode to not loose too much of my momentum (if the waves aren't steep enough to keep me surfing by gravity alone--which, unfortunately, they rarely are). Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt Broze wrote: > > I'm with James on this. By my measurements the Carolina is 29.5" wide. How'd you measure it? Perception seems to think it's 25.25" wide. I haven't paddled one, but I'd never confuse one for a jon boat. -- Steve *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 01:37 AM 9/27/01 -0700, Matt Broze wrote: >John Fereira wrote: > >>>>>>>>>.A few weeks ago I took out a boat that makes the Carolina feel >like a Looksha II. > The Prijon Capria is 2 1/2 feet shorter and 3 1/2" wider, and not only >could it be edged fairly easily, it wasn't difficult to roll either. > >The Prijon Capri (12' by 27") is 2.5 feet shorter (and that in itself would >make it lean easier) but my measurements say it is also 2.5" narrower than >the Carolina (and that would make it lean a whole lot easier to lean than >the Carolina) not 3.5" wider. Are we talking about the same kayaks here? The >Capri also looks to be much finer ended than the Carolina (and that would >also make it tippier, other things being equal). John, are you sure that you >are not talking about the Perception Corona or some other Perception model >here. I realize that several sources list the Carolina at 25.25" wide and >the 2001 Canoe Buyer's Guide even says it is only 24.5" wide but my calipers >and tape measure said 29.5" on the one (Carolina Expedition) that I measured >in Sept. 1998. I could be in error, perhaps kcd could measure her Carolina's >width and report back to us on it. I'm sure we're talking about different boats. According to the Perception web site the Carolina is 25.25" wide, 14'7" wide and while I know that web sites are not always accurate, having paddled a Carolina and comparing it to several other Perception boats at a demo day (including the Corona) I think that the number is fairly accurate. The Perception site lists the Swifty at 29.5", so perhaps that is the boat that you're thinking of. The Swifty is definitely a recreational class kayak and would be the choice for laying back and spending a relaxing day fishing. The Carolina is a boat that I put in a class I call "short touring" (my own personal definition). They're generally 12'-15' long, 24-26" wide, and have some of the features of a "real" touring boat (i.e. bulkheads/hatches, rudder). *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I guess I should back off from my absolutist statement about edging beamy boats. Of course, wide boats can be edged. But it isn't always easy. I weigh 140 pounds after lunch, and I have one leg that doesn't have any muscles from the thigh down, so tilting boats is not easy for me unless the outfitting is just right and the boat is responsive. I get so enthused about saying what I wish to say that I often forget that other people are stronger than me and that some people couldn't care less about edging a boat anyway. So let me be quoted as saying the following two things: 1. A wider boat requires more effort to tip on edge than a narrower boat, all things being equal 2. All things are never equal. That said, this has been a pretty interesting discussion. Those who have criticized me, thank you for being so polite. Jim Tibensky _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I wrote: >>>>>>>By my measurements the Carolina is 29.5" wide.<<<<<<< Oops! I went back and found the original notes I made when I measured and tested this kayak at the 9/98 Symposium. Yes, I save just about everything. The "5" I scrawled as part of 25 and 3/8 looked very like a 9 and I transcribed a "9" into my computer later rather than the "5" I should have. Sorry. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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